We're Just Not Good Enough

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Johnny Member
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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1672359Post Johnny Member »

Bluthy wrote: I showed you that you are shifting on your "we don't have good players" stance with clear quotes where you give begrudging props to some emerging players.
No you haven't. You're a liar Bluthy.

And now you've just quoted me as saying "we don't have good players" which is a complete lie. I've never said anything of the sort.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you may have been mistaken, but obviously I was wrong. You're a liar.


Why posters resort to blatant lying on a footy forum is beyond me.



The other quotes you put up don't for a second contradict my OP. Not in the slightest - if anything they support it.


It's in the OP and very clear - but as you have difficulty comprehending it, I'll repeat it:

So as we improve naturally (as guys get to that 50-100 game mark) there seems to be an expectation that the improvement trend will continue infinitely. But I have my doubts. I'd argue that outside of Gresham and last year's draftees - no one else will get much better than they will be this season......


.....But what we really, really need to see is a few guys show us that this year they'll become freakishly good. We need another 2-3 at Jack Stevens' level if we're going to improve enough over the next couple of seasons to seriously compete.


Acres? McCartin? Billings? Gresham? Freeman? Carlisle?


This isn't a knock on our recruiters necessarily - as looking at the drafts that I've flagged above, aside from the Bont and Petracca there's nothing glaring jumping out at us that we missed badly. It's just that at this stage, I don't believe we've brought in the required talent to be a genuine top 4 team.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1677897Post Johnny Member »

I thought with the mini-meltdown Saintsational is having at the moment, seemingly on the back of unrealistic expectations regarding the team's performance - I'd bump this thread to put some perspective on the current predicament.

We're not good enough. No one wanted to hear it back in Jan or March or whenever I posted this, but it's true. We don't have the cattle. We missed with the early drafts of this rebuild, and as a result have a gaping hole of talent.

We won't be good enough until the draftees of 2013 and 2014 peak. That could be another 2-3 years - but I'm confident it will happen.

We also need to add at least 1 top 10 pick this year and hopefully lure a decent gun from another club, without giving up both the top 10 picks this year.


This from an ITK makes it pretty clear where the club's expectation are:

If we are truly honest and believe we can consistently beat the GWS, Crows etc of rhe competition we wouldn't he contemplating adding to our list with free angency. The facts are we're a few players short of being a consistently top team. At our very best, and with the players total belief ( between the ears ) we can beat them. But we have to be at 100%. Hard to do. We need the better players to come in so that when we play at 90_95% we still are competitive and win our share of top games. At the moment we're working on figuring out who our best 18 are so when the new ones come in we are ready to strike. Sounds strange I know but we were never going to challenge this year and perhaps not next year but it's closer.


So Saints supporters, and I seem to find myself saying this almost every year - don't blame the club for ruining your unrealistic expectations.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1677900Post saintspremiers »

We lost our past 3 games by 50, 40 & 57 points.

Yes I know I'm being unrealistic to expect tighter contests sorry.

At least we don't lose close games. When we go down, we do it properly. That stands us apart front eh ray of the League.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1677912Post mullet »

Johnny Member wrote:I thought with the mini-meltdown Saintsational is having at the moment, seemingly on the back of unrealistic expectations regarding the team's performance - I'd bump this thread to put some perspective on the current predicament.

We're not good enough. No one wanted to hear it back in Jan or March or whenever I posted this, but it's true. We don't have the cattle. We missed with the early drafts of this rebuild, and as a result have a gaping hole of talent.

We won't be good enough until the draftees of 2013 and 2014 peak. That could be another 2-3 years - but I'm confident it will happen.

We also need to add at least 1 top 10 pick this year and hopefully lure a decent gun from another club, without giving up both the top 10 picks this year.


This from an ITK makes it pretty clear where the club's expectation are:

If we are truly honest and believe we can consistently beat the GWS, Crows etc of rhe competition we wouldn't he contemplating adding to our list with free angency. The facts are we're a few players short of being a consistently top team. At our very best, and with the players total belief ( between the ears ) we can beat them. But we have to be at 100%. Hard to do. We need the better players to come in so that when we play at 90_95% we still are competitive and win our share of top games. At the moment we're working on figuring out who our best 18 are so when the new ones come in we are ready to strike. Sounds strange I know but we were never going to challenge this year and perhaps not next year but it's closer.


So Saints supporters, and I seem to find myself saying this almost every year - don't blame the club for ruining your unrealistic expectations.
I agree with this and so do some of the commentators of football. Think it was David King the other day on SEN and another guy saying the same thing. And what a
difference the injection of a bit of class does. Lifts everyone . Someone with a cool head when the plan isnt working. He used Hawthorn and their demise as an example. Taking Mitchell and Lewis away has removed the class hence why they have crashed this year. I think back to how we used to play when Hamil was in the team (rarely I know) everyone walked a lot taller. The flow on effect when everyone is just that little bit more confident grows like a snowball. The plan was always to go hard at the end of this season for a quality player or two. This year is our step back before we take a few steps forward. I'm no expert, but just looking at Melbourne, Port, Richmond.... its a bit of a pattern.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1677914Post spert »

Some worrying under-performing efforts this season. I notice since Round 8 that we are 18th on the ladder for quarters won, and we are probably down the bottom for a lot of other key stats. To win tonight would require a 180 degree turn around in most of those key stats.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1677933Post Johnny Member »

saintspremiers wrote:We lost our past 3 games by 50, 40 & 57 points.

Yes I know I'm being unrealistic to expect tighter contests sorry.
Expecting? Or hoping for?


With the talent on our list, I pretty much expect us to beat the teams below us, and get flogged by those above us.


Of course I hope we win each week - but that's a different story.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1677936Post Johnny Member »

spert wrote:Some worrying under-performing efforts this season. I notice since Round 8 that we are 18th on the ladder for quarters won, and we are probably down the bottom for a lot of other key stats. To win tonight would require a 180 degree turn around in most of those key stats.
But that's because we're not a good team.


It's only a 'worry' if you expected us to be a good team this year. If you were realistic and expected us to be an average team until we somehow got some talent into the best 22 - then it's not really a worry at all.

It is what it is.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1677942Post meher baba »

spert wrote:Some worrying under-performing efforts this season. I notice since Round 8 that we are 18th on the ladder for quarters won, and we are probably down the bottom for a lot of other key stats. To win tonight would require a 180 degree turn around in most of those key stats.
It would seem likely (perhaps obvious) that a team which has lost three games in a row will be down the bottom of the list of teams in terms of quarters won!

We've lost three in a row, and our stats in those three games have, not surprisingly, not been that great. We haven't played tonight's game yet: let's see how we go.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1678416Post citywest »

we were crap again but we won and that is all that matters.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1678438Post Con Gorozidis »

We currently sit 10th which seems about right.
Pies and Swans nipping at our heels.
Most predicted we would finish 7th-11th.
Last edited by Con Gorozidis on Sun 18 Jun 2017 11:48am, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1678444Post The OtherThommo »

By gawd, it was yet another awful game - and I emphasise "another". Not specific to us, either.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1678446Post Devilhead »

Wasn't too awful when we were up by 42 points


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1678461Post The Fireman »

No we aren't


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1678469Post HardSaint »

Weird win
s*** game
Farrrk we're frustrating and uncomfortable to watch at the moment


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1678535Post meher baba »

I still think we are getting there. We blew it after half-time by missing shot after shot, keeping North in the game. The two touched behinds to Billings, especially the second one, were morale-sapping. Our next four games are all potentially winnable and that's a test to find out how good we are.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1678557Post Johnny Member »

Win or lose - the same problems in terms of personnel remain. That won't change until at least next season.

Just enjoy the win.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1678667Post Con Gorozidis »

Johnny Member wrote:Win or lose - the same problems in terms of personnel remain. That won't change until at least next season.

Just enjoy the win.
To keep it in perspective:
North had 8 blokes <50 games experience to our 5.
We had 13 blokes in the core 50-150 game group to their 7.

This was a game we should have won. This is the first year of a re-build for North.
Last edited by Con Gorozidis on Sat 17 Jun 2017 5:21pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1678673Post thejiggingsaint »

A reasonable OP. However, in my humble opinion, perhaps the title of the OP could/ should be amended to "We're just not good enough.... at the moment" I suggest this amendment, because I believe this to be the case. We are currently seeing the boys in a trough of poor form ( despite last night's win ) and naturally there is disappointment, frustration and, yes, anger at this situation. A win next sundee puts us at 7-6 and back into the positive side of the ledger. Wins are the best means of building confidence; confidence is the vital ingredient in building for a run at finals. Yes, we may well be "just not good enough" NOW, but it's not THAT far away. Go Saints!


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1678835Post Con Gorozidis »

Carlton had an incredible 10 guys with < 50 games experience last night and 15 < 100.

We had 5 < 50 and 13 < 100. Still a high number.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1678848Post Johnny Member »

Con Gorozidis wrote:Carlton had an incredible 10 guys with < 50 games experience last night and 15 < 100.

We had 5 < 50 and 13 < 100. Still a high number.
Carlton are a myth.

Check out this midfield:

Murphy (29yo)
Gibbs (28yo)
Cripps (22yo)
Kreuzer (28yo)
Add in Curnow (28yo) as a stopper.


They average 73 Points per game. That's last in the comp.
They are last for Inside 50s also.

So they can't score. They can't even get it inside 50. With a midfield that is equal to any in the comp, they can't get it forward.

And that's because they don't try to. They always play 1, sometimes 2 extra men in defence. They're playing a game that is never going to work.

They are 12th for Opposition Inside 50s.
They're 9th for Points Against.

So even with 2 spare men back, and one of the best midfields in the comp - they're still conceding nearly 90 points per game. And, they're no conceding huge amounts of Inside 50s. The midfield are the ones doing the work. They're last for Inside 50s, and they're 12th for conceding oppositon Inside 50s - so guess where the game is being played?

Yep, by these guys:

Murphy (29yo)
Gibbs (28yo)
Cripps (22yo)
Kreuzer (28yo)
Curnow (28yo) as a stopper.



So basically, all this 'oh man Carlton are so young' may be true in theory - but in reality it's not the young guys doing the lifting. It's the seasoned champions (plus Cripps of course) that are doing the work.

They have 4 players in the Top 50 in the comp for Contested Possessions. Guess who they are?

Yep, these guys:

Murphy (29yo)
Gibbs (28yo)
Cripps (22yo)
Curnow (28yo)


They have 4 guys in the Top 50 in the comp for Uncontested Possessions:
Murphy
Gibbs
Simpson
Docherty


So basically, Gibbs, Murphy, Kreuzer, Cripps, Kruezer and Simpson are doing all the work. With Docherty getting the pill a lot (5th in the comp for Rebound 50s & 12th for Uncontested Possessions) from these guys.

Outside of that, they're rubbish.


But my point is, that most young teams do this. They try to strangle the game and 'learn to defend'. Most manage to do it and grind out low scoring 'honourable losses' and the odd win that has the footy media and fans rubbing themselves with excitement - but it's when they start to introduce attack that it often falls away.

I mean seriously, two loose men in defence??


Carlton are rubbish, and are at that stage where opposition teams don't try to stop them. They back themselves and their own strategy to win. Exactly like us last year and pre-GWS.

However once you're on their radar, they will dissect what you're doing and find chinks in your armour. They'd dismantle what you're doing.

What Carlton are doing is easy to dismantle.


Tag Simpson and Docherty down back, and DON'T BOMB IT IN TO THE HOT SPOT!!

If they have 8 defenders - play 7 forwards and 1 extra midfielder. AND DON'T BOMB IT TO THE HOTSPOT!!

If they have 7 defenders, play 7 forwards - AND DON"T BOMB IT TO THE HOTSPOT!!


To summarise, they have a very, very good midfield of older, mature champion players that are fit and in form. That alone is enough to be competitive. Throw in a ridiculously defensive game plan and of course they're going to be competitive. Then when you add in stupid tactics like Gold Coast BOMBING IT IN to Lynch, and that's where they pinch wins.

Why? Because Eade backed their own outdated style of play to 'bomb it in to Lynch and Wright' against a team that is trying to get you to do exactly that! They're waiting for it, and setting up for it. Yet Gold Coast kept doing it all night.

Against Hawthorn, Gold Coast had 17 Marks Inside 50 and went at 57% Inside 50s Scores. Wright and Lynch took 20 marks between them and 6 shots at goal. It worked eventually. Mainly due to the fact that Hawthorn are utter rubbish down back these days.

But they tried the same thing against Carlton and had 6 Marks Inside 50 and had a 40% Inside 50s Scores! It didn't work. It was clear it wasn't working, yet they kept doing it. They played directly into Carlton's hands.


So kudos to Carlton. But my point is that when other teams finally acknowledge that they need to stop Carlton too, things will change. And when Bolton tries to pull the trigger and get his team to actually score themselves - we'll see how well they can adapt.

Oh, and when Kreuzer goes down like he always does, we'll see how well they hold up in the midfield too.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1678849Post Con Gorozidis »

Johnny Member wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:Carlton had an incredible 10 guys with < 50 games experience last night and 15 < 100.

We had 5 < 50 and 13 < 100. Still a high number.
Carlton are a myth.
They are 15th so hardly a myth. They are known to be poor. It is a known known. The AFL and the media have a vested interest to talk them up. But that also applies to the Saints.
But if we want to be realistic about Carlton we need to be realistic about ourselves. We are 10th. And our side isnt all that young. We are just 10th.
I think it is fair to say they have better under 21s than us though.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1678850Post Johnny Member »

Con Gorozidis wrote:
Johnny Member wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:Carlton had an incredible 10 guys with < 50 games experience last night and 15 < 100.

We had 5 < 50 and 13 < 100. Still a high number.
Carlton are a myth.
They are 15th so hardly a myth. They are known to be poor. It is a known known. The AFL and the media have a vested interest to talk them up. But that also applies to the Saints.
But if we want to be realistic about Carlton we need to be realistic about ourselves. We are 10th. And our side isnt all that young. We are just 10th.
I think it is fair to say they have better under 21s than us though.
Agreed.

Although their under 21s are hiding behind a champion midfield of no. 1 draft picks in their prime.

Ours aren't.


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1678852Post Proph3t of egan »

Con Gorozidis wrote:
Johnny Member wrote:
Con Gorozidis wrote:Carlton had an incredible 10 guys with < 50 games experience last night and 15 < 100.

We had 5 < 50 and 13 < 100. Still a high number.
Carlton are a myth.
They are 15th so hardly a myth. They are known to be poor. It is a known known. The AFL and the media have a vested interest to talk them up. But that also applies to the Saints.
But if we want to be realistic about Carlton we need to be realistic about ourselves. We are 10th. And our side isnt all that young. We are just 10th.
I think it is fair to say they have better under 21s than us though.
I think what you've got to recognise is that while Carlton and even Richmond field young sides, look at their core groups

Carlton-Liam Jones, Alex Silvagni, Kruezer, Casboult, Murphy, Gibbs, Cripps, Simpson, Docherty. Cripps and docherty are the only ones with more career left to play than they have already played. While these guys fill the important roles, it allows their developing talent to get used to the game, while not actually having to fill important roles. I don't know any of the Carlton player under 50 games beside Silvagni and SPS

Richmond-Alex Rance, Cotchin, Martin, Riewoldt are some of the best players of the last 7 years, but they carry Richmond, Their young players at best, pitch in a goal or so a game and are all small forwards

All players look better when they have those core players around them, it's when they start attracting attention from opposition and how the stand up to it when we see whether they actually have what it takes to play


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1678934Post thejiggingsaint »

Good post!


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Re: We're Just Not Good Enough

Post: # 1687610Post Johnny Member »

saynta wrote:
saintsRrising wrote:
Johnny Member wrote: McCartin drop what appear to be easy-ish marks.
You have to be kidding?

If there is one aspect of his game that is excellent it is marking. McCartin, or McClunk as some call him, is a very solid, and often one grab, mark.
Prefer you opinion any day to JM's.
Interesting.


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