Jarryn Geary to captain St Kilda

[dragit]

I honestly don't think he is any better or worse with regard to skill level, this year, compared to any season since 09

His skill level may not be any different but his decision making and judgement on how he disposes of the ball certainly improved. This distinction is a concept that you do not seem able to grasp.

For example gone are the ""Hail Mary"" kicks that Geary used to do running out of the backline, including at times when he was in the clear under little pressure, when he he just used to roost it apparently to no one or at least not to the advantage of a team mate.

Geary today uses the ball better by both hand and foot. His skills have not improved but his ability to get the ball to a teammate has.

You would think that would be reflected in his disposal efficiency which hasn't effectively changed in 4 years.

[CURLY]

I honestly don't think he is any better or worse with regard to skill level, this year, compared to any season since 09

His skill level may not be any different but his decision making and judgement on how he disposes of the ball certainly improved. This distinction is a concept that you do not seem able to grasp.

For example gone are the ""Hail Mary"" kicks that Geary used to do running out of the backline, including at times when he was in the clear under little pressure, when he he just used to roost it apparently to no one or at least not to the advantage of a team mate.

Geary today uses the ball better by both hand and foot. His skills have not improved but his ability to get the ball to a teammate has.

You would think that would be reflected in his disposal efficiency which hasn't effectively changed in 4 years.

Disposal efficiency stats are the greatest crock of s*** I think you will find other than perhaps inside 50 stats.

[borderbarry]

For several years Gears did not have much in front of him to kick it to either, with Roo at full forward to far away.

[saintsRrising]

I honestly don't think he is any better or worse with regard to skill level, this year, compared to any season since 09

His skill level may not be any different but his decision making and judgement on how he disposes of the ball certainly improved. This distinction is a concept that you do not seem able to grasp.

For example gone are the ""Hail Mary"" kicks that Geary used to do running out of the backline, including at times when he was in the clear under little pressure, when he he just used to roost it apparently to no one or at least not to the advantage of a team mate.

Geary today uses the ball better by both hand and foot. His skills have not improved but his ability to get the ball to a teammate has.

You would think that would be reflected in his disposal efficiency which hasn't effectively changed in 4 years.

I go by what I see at the game.

DE as a stat is also often of little real meaning. Many backman can have high DE's by chipping the ball around and often backwards to unmarked teammates. A mid may have a low DE has he is often under high pressure having to get rid of the ball quickly.

Geary last year was also chipping the ball backwards less. He was taking the game on and attacking more. That should have lowered his DE unless......

My PHO stat for Geary improved last year. The times that I Pulled My Hair Out when he disposed of the ball became virtually non-existent, and indeed he had one of the best PHO stats for this in the team. He went from serial offender to virtualy zero.. A PHO moment is when a player makes an almighty poor ball judgement call or just really wastes the ball.

[saintsRrising]

For several years Gears did not have much in front of him to kick it to either, with Roo at full forward to far away.

That is also where better judgement comes into play.

[dragit]

Phở stat - i can dig that

[oldie60]

I honestly don't think he is any better or worse with regard to skill level, this year, compared to any season since 09 (where he held his spot in 16 straight wins) he was a RS nominated player who looked comfortable at the level for a young player and looked above VFL comfortably.

He is probably got better as a player with experience, but he was bloody good from about 2012 in any case!

Always rated his ability to shut down small forwards and cover for other defenders when required

He can also push forward

Yes, he is average by foot
As was Mark Bickley

Agree entirely, you could probably put Danny Frawley in the same category, not the most skilled but heaps of ticker and he was our longest serving captian until recently. I think it was harder for Frawley as his first few years we were cellar dwellers but he kept plugging away.

[WellardSaint]

I honestly don't think he is any better or worse with regard to skill level, this year, compared to any season since 09

His skill level may not be any different but his decision making and judgement on how he disposes of the ball certainly improved. This distinction is a concept that you do not seem able to grasp.

For example gone are the ""Hail Mary"" kicks that Geary used to do running out of the backline, including at times when he was in the clear under little pressure, when he he just used to roost it apparently to no one or at least not to the advantage of a team mate.

Geary today uses the ball better by both hand and foot. His skills have not improved but his ability to get the ball to a teammate has.

You would think that would be reflected in his disposal efficiency which hasn't effectively changed in 4 years.

I go by what I see at the game.

DE as a stat is also often of little real meaning. Many backman can have high DE's by chipping the ball around and often backwards to unmarked teammates. A mid may have a low DE has he is often under high pressure having to get rid of the ball quickly.

Geary last year was also chipping the ball backwards less. He was taking the game on and attacking more. That should have lowered his DE unless......

My PHO stat for Geary improved last year. The times that I Pulled My Hair Out when he disposed of the ball became virtually non-existent, and indeed he had one of the best PHO stats for this in the team. He went from serial offender to virtualy zero.. A PHO moment is when a player makes an almighty poor ball judgement call or just really wastes the ball.

the last phrase is redundant and superfluous: A PHO moment is when a player makes an almighty poor ball judgement call or just really wastes the ball.
Explanation was contained in the 3rd last sentence.
Just saying

[BigMart]

People see what they want to see, and ignore the data if it doesn't support their view

They turn to anecdotal, subjective views, which of course has a natural bias

Coaches look at the data, It's just what data they look at?


BTW
I agree that he has improved his decision making, I believe I stated that... And I always have had that stance. He has become a better player, over time, hence his B&F results....

Not due to an all f a sudden improvement in skill after R6? Which some will have you believe was the time he got better and became a better player.... Fact is, he never all of a sudden improved at 27yo after a good training session

He possibly hit some good form (related to confidence, not skill) and all the 'noise' from performing skill is removed and clarity of execution occurs simply. That and continual growth of knowledge and strategy on how to play well (experience) allows for clearer decision making


Again

He's been good for years

[saintsRrising]

People see what they want to see, and ignore the data if it doesn't support their view

They turn to anecdotal, subjective views, which of course has a natural bias

I have based a professional career on being very good at analyzing and interpreting data. Data is very important, but only if it is meaningful data. Data is certainly of great benefit to football coaches and others including fitness staff etc.

However equally one of the earliest bits of advice I was given was "garbage in , garbage out".

DE is very much a stat that in itself means very little. I mean what is it really measuring? What is its accuracy and precision? Is it actually a subjective stat as the person recording the stat makes a judgement call as to what an effective disposal is? Does this subjective stat then vary as different people will then record it on different days and as humans will also record things differently when it is based on individual observation and assessment.

Champion Data uses a measure called kick rating, which takes into account the degree of difficulty of kicks when measuring a player's kicking effectiveness. You may then also really need to factor in the coaches instructions to various players. Players who just feed the playmakers are likely to be by rated better at kicking than the actual better kicks who may be under instruction to kick longer to try and break play open.

In addition you do understand that BF voting is based on the subjective views of the coaches? Indeed virtually all football awards apart from the Coleman are based on subjective views. So there is more than a touch of irony of being content at using subjective measures to support one's own selected opinion while inferring that others cannot make judgements based on personal repeated observations.

[BigMart]

I believe I mentioned it was 'important' data which is taken notice of by anyone ITK.. quoting part of a thread is case in point... its the part that suits... therefore it changes the story the data tells...

Selected data can be used to paint any picture you want... but is it useful, experts would know if it is...

Best and Fairest voting is pretty simple

The coaches know the role they wanted the player to perform, and rate them accordingly - against that

Brownlow
Not the most accurate award... is voted as to the most significant player on the ground... you tend to find out that players who win media type awards/Brownlows/Coaches awards generally perform pretty well by most measurements.

[White Winmar]

Phở stat - i can dig that

I love a good beef PHO. I recommend Super Bowl in Victoria St. Richmond. They have a serving size you can literally take a bath in. They also have a bull's pizzle version. Yes, it is exactly what you think it is. Haven't tried it yet, but my son has dared me to.

[dragit]

Super bowl looks good cheers WW, i'll give it whirl… we usually go Binh Minh or Quan 88 which are pretty good.

[White Winmar]

Yes dragit, I think my boy and I have tried every one of them on that wonderful strip. You must try the Super Bowl. Enough for four. Served in a bathtub. When this is the case, the quality is normally poor, but not at this place. Another underrated place is the Tahn Dat, in Springvale. All the weird versions you can imagine. If it can be eaten, you'll find it in one of their soups. I suppose you've already been there and Tahn Dat!! Thank you very much, I'm here all week. I recommend the veal!

[White Winmar]

As for the skipper, he is one of the most improved players In the competition. Two years ago, I was a Skeptic and thought he might even get delisted. He is held in great regard by the coaching staff and players, and I suppose that's the main thing. Internally, he appeared to be the obvious choice. His second half of 2016 probably sealed the deal. I think he'll be a good captain. Leads by example, trains his guts out and has made the most of his talents. A bit like Nick Maxwell at the filth. Nowhere near the best player, but the best leader, except for Roo, of course. Gee I wish Roo had taken one more year, if only to knock Sticks out of the record books. Still, if giving up the captaincy extends Roo's career by even one year, then it is worth doing.

[WellardSaint]

I imagine most supporters would be split on Geary,
- a large number thinking he has been a great servant of the club, but his days are numbered,
and the club needs a younger back half with more skill;
- an equally large number believing that Gears could very well stand up on the podium at the G with the cup in hand.

The first group of "Cassandras" would point to a historic propensity for helicopter kicks and poor disposal,
using the filter of "only seeing what they want to see" and cherry-picking only the worst memories.
The second group of dedicated believers would refer to Gears' huge respect by both peers and coaches, his elite fitness, and his most recent purple patch.

Those in the inner circle, the coaches and playing group, are the best judges, so if they pick Gears as the Alpha Male,
then we should unilaterally embrace their decision and look forward to the journey up the ladder.
Onwards and upwards !!!

[saintsRrising]

I

The first group of "Cassandras" would point to a historic propensity for helicopter kicks and poor disposal,
using the filter of "only seeing what they want to see" and cherry-picking only the worst memories.
The second group of dedicated believers would refer to Gears' huge respect by both peers and coaches, his elite fitness, and his most recent purple patch.

Actually there is a large group that rated Geary highly except for his sometimes as you said ""historic propensity for helicopter kicks and poor disposal"" which caused various and mixed views as to whether his many good and elite qualities were enough to outweigh that flaw, but who now are very happy with Geary as he has overcame that flaw last season. I think the actual number of posters that do not recognise that he improve that flaw would be few.

[Bluthy]

Personally I think Gears improved stats come from:

1) having more guys open because we have fitter and better players than 3 years ago so are getting into space more where Gears can hit them with a less tricky kick for him
2) Risk minimisation by the coaches - he's been instructed to take the chippy safe kick every time rather than the risker kick he will often turnover or just go up and under. Or dish off where ever possible to the good kickers

Thats ok for one guy but my worries come in if we also play Dempster and Brown. Thats a lot of guys who will struggle to work it up the field confidently. That lets the oppo focus on stopping the damaging guys like Joey and Savage who have the run and gun to get penetration. You become too easy to shut down at the back.