St Kilda forward structure 2008: where do we get the goals?

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Riewoldting
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St Kilda forward structure 2008: where do we get the goals?

Post: # 476023Post Riewoldting »

With the retirements of Gehrig, Voss and to lesser extent, Hamill, there is little doubt that a new forward structure is vital to the Saints' chances of a premiership in 2008.

However, there is a bloody big silver lining to the retirements, as they allow St Kilda to move forward and develop a forward structure that is slightly different to the Gehrig years, yet retains a lot of the best aspects of those years.

I suspect that Voss and Gehrig notified Lyon of their intentions as early as possible to give him maximum notice before trade week and the draft.

2007 was an absolutely abysmal year for St Kilda scoring. We scored just 1874 points - 16th in the comp - in finishing 9th. This was 200 points less than 2006 and reflected a downward trend since our marquee years of 2004-2005.

Interestingly, Geelong in 2006 scored 1982 points and finished 10th. Just one season later they were able to score 2542 points (2953 after finals) and win a flag. That's a whopping 28 per cent increase (about 93 goals) difference from one regular season to the next.

So where did these extra goals come from? The main sources were:

Mooney: 22 goals in 2006 to 55 goals in 2007 = an extra 33
N Ablett: 4 goals in 2006 to 28 goals in 2007 = an extra 24
Stokes: 9 goals in 2006 to 28 goals in 2007 = an extra 19
Ling: 9 goals in 2006 to 27 goals in 2007 = an extra 18
Wojcinski: 1 goal in 2006 to 14 goals in 2007 = an extra 13
S Johnson: 29 goals in 2006 to 41 goals in 2007 = an extra 12
Varcoe, Hawkins and Selwood: 34 goals after debuting in 2007 = an extra 34

So that's an extra 153 goals right there. The Cats also got less scoring output from Ottens, G Ablett, Playfair, Gardiner, Tenace, Hunt, King and Enright.

So with a combination of restructuring of the forward line, significant improvement (both at individual and team level), and the injection of some new goalkicking talent, the Cats were able to go from a team finishing 9th to a team three games and almost 40% clear on the top of the ladder.

With this in mind, below is where I expect the goals to come from for the Saints in 2008.

60+ goals: Justin Koschitzke
Frankly I am surprised that this is even up for debate. Kosi is quick, tall, an incredible contested mark, a reliable kick, and unbelievably competitive. If played at full-forward there is no reason why he could not kick 60 goals plus. For years people have been complaining about him being wasted in the ruck; well, complain no more. Has never kicked more than 26 in a season (2007), but has never played as a dedicated FF. Mooney went and got his head right and went from kicking 22 in 2006 to 55 in 2007. We need the same from Kosi. Will need to kick 3 goals a game; as we have seen, he can hit a purple patch and kick 5 in a quarter, and is also likely to be more consistent than Gehrig, who could sometimes go missing for a week.

50+ goals: Nick Riewoldt
Roo is best played as a mobile centre half-forward, as his aerobic capacity for a big man is phenomenal. However, I still expect him to kick 50+ goals from this position (a little more than 2 per game). His accuracy is not too bad at 60% over his career but I would like to see that raised to 65%.

35 goals: Stephen Milne
Milne is much maligned, but 30-35 goals is a good return for a crumbing small forward (compare Stokes at Geelong). The 2005 season was one out of the box (perfect example 11 goals v Brisbane). Milne kicked 32 in 2007 so he just needs to keep kicking them. However, he must stop trying to do too much (baulking etc) and must exert more forward defensive pressure. Sticking a tackle would be nice too.

35 goals: Lenny Hayes / Luke Ball / Aaron Fiora / Leigh Montagna
These players are <10 goal per game midfielders, nothing more. We should expect to get 35 goals from the four of them. The only criticism I have is poor accuracy from Hayes and Fiora. As stated below, if King/Gardiner do not come up they will need to do more (perhaps 10-12 goals apiece).

30 goals: Adam Schneider
Very smart trading by the Saints. Schneider to play exclusively as a specialist forward - this is our Steve Johnson. Has kicked 22 and 27 the past two seasons so knows where they are. All this guff about "recycled hacks" or "Sydney Mk 2" sounds like Lyon-bashing to me. Thankfully most people recognise that Schneider has talent and represents fantastic goalkicking potential for the Saints. Also means we don't place all our crumbing eggs in the Milne basket - takes pressure off Yapper, and diversity in goalkicking can only be a good thing. Expect St Kilda to get a lot more scoring opportunities from this guy locking it in the forward 50.

30 goals: Jason Gram / Brendon Goddard
We have retained L Fisher, R Clarke and Ferguson (thus far) and recruited Dempster primarily as a tagger, but he can play in the backline. Therefore, depending on BJ's fitness, I expect to see Gram and Goddard as part of the midfield rotations in 2008, with Gram floating down as an extra attacking half-back and Goddard providing a link at wing/half-forward. Gram has kicked 9 and 10 the last two years (as a half-back), Goddard 10 in 2006. I believe we can get 30 goals out of the pair from long accurate bombs over the flood. I have a feeling that Dempster might have been targeted by Lyon for a specific accountable, defensive role to free up Gram/Goddard for more attacking roles.

20 goals: Steven King / Michael Gardiner
This one is crucial; goals from a resting ruckman is where we have been lacking since Everitt's departure. The closest we have got was 12 from Ackland in 2005. Would be handy for Rix to change in the ruck and let Gardiner/King nab a goal a game. If we don't get goals from these players, our midfielders MUST play a greater goalkicking role. A lot depends on M Gardiner coming good.

20 goals: Nick Dal Santo
Dal Santo needs to kick more goals - his best was 15 in 2005, and 5 of those came in one game (vs Melbourne Rd 17, from memory). Accuracy is very good - about 60% over his career, which is what you would expect from a player of his skill. He needs to cut through the defences and take his chances. Critical in this is Ball getting his groin right so Dal is not tagged out of every game. Ling went from 9 goals in 2006 to 27 in 2007, and Wojcinski from 1 to 14. I am only asking Dal to roughly double his output (9 to 20).

20 goals: Robert Harvey
I expect to be shouted down on this one. I would like to see Harvey play as a dedicated half-forward in 2008. I know he is more than capable of playing in the midfield, and that he is useful in the rotations, but realistically we have Ball, Dal, Hayes, Gram, Goddard, Fiora, Armitage (maybe), Baker, Birss and Dempster. It would be great to park the Rolls Royce on the half-forward flank to work his magic setting up Kosi, Roo and Schneider while picking up a goal a game himself. Ricciuto and Buckley have had success in this role in 2006 (44 and 26 goals respectively). Class is class.

15 goals: Charlie Gardiner
I don't know what to expect from Gardiner in 2008. Many say he has been kept out of the Geelong side by N Ablett's good form. However, Ablett only hit his stride in 2007; in 2006, with Ablett only playing 7 games and the Cats sitting in the botton half of the 8, Gardiner could only manage 5 games. His best season was in 2004, when he kicked 10 goals as a forward (from 19 games!). In my opinion he will be important to our structure in filling the Hamill "lead-up forward" role. Hopefully with the fresh start and a strong pep-talk from Lyon ("Geelong doesn't need you, we do") he will put in a big pre-season and net more. I think he will kick 10, but hope he will kick 20, so I have split the difference and put him down for 15 goals.

10 goals: Jarryd Allen
This one is an absolute smokey, but with the delisting of Watts I can only conclude that the coaching staff have seen something in Allen to tip the scales in his favour. He will be 20 going into next season, and missed a lot of this year with injury, so is still a rank outsider to make his debut in 2008. If he gets a few games and can kick 10 goals, he will have performed extremely well. N Ablett was languishing in the reserves at Geelong in 2006 but found form and played off in a GF. In 2007 he played 21 games for 34 goals. I wouldn't expect that sort of performance from Allen in his debut season, but if he can kick 10 goals to go with C Gardiner's 15-odd, that would be similar to the goalkicking injection that the Cats enjoyed this year.
The fact remains that we need somebody to step up from our reserves side and kick a few. Will it be Allen?

X-factor: 10 goals
It would be handy to have a player come into the side and kick 10 goals from nothing the previous year - Geelong enjoyed this in 2007 with Varcoe (14 goals), Hawkins (12) and Selwood (7). So there might be something to be gained in targeting a goalkicking mid with pick #9 - a Cyril Rioli type. It's also entirely possible that X Clarke or Gilbert could get it together and kick a few.

Other: 20 goals
Those not mentioned above - Rix, Jones, key defenders, Casey players etc. If the side gels and we pull out the percentage-boosting party tricks against Carlton or the Dogs, this might jump to 25-30 goals (in an ideal world).

Total: 345 goals
Not counting the "X-factor" goals, this would net us 345 goals in the season, or 15-16 goals per game, and with behinds that would push up above 100 points per game. This is what we will need to score to finish top 4 (provided our defence stays strong).

Obviously it's not going to simply happen - it requires hard work, a big pre-season, improvement in players/team and a good run with injuries. But in 2007 we kicked an abysmal 1874 points and finished 16th for points scored, and this was with Gehrig at full-forward.

We must take the opportunity of a new team structure to start scoring heavily again. I believe that Lyon and co. have specifically traded with this in mind for a decent crack at the top 4 - and from there anything can happen.

Roll on 2008 8-)
Last edited by Riewoldting on Sun 14 Oct 2007 5:48pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Post: # 476027Post Oh When the Saints »

Good analysis, and well expressed as usual.

Rooey will kick at least 60 IMO.

Fiora kicked 12.19 this year ... that's 31 shots on goal. If he improves his accuracy, he could kick 20 goals for the year.


If Ball is fit and regains some penetration, he actually has pretty good goal sense too ... I reckon he could slot 10-15 for the year.

Xavier Clarke kicked 10.16 this year .... again, with better accuracy, he could slot 20 goals for the year (in fact IMO he will have to to keep his spot).


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Re: St Kilda forward structure 2008: where do we get the goa

Post: # 476028Post bigcarl »

i agree that kosi must play ff.

no doubt riewoldt would also make a very good full forward but his greatest strength is his endurance so why use him in the most static position on the ground?

kosi just gives the forward line something it has lacked. the ability to take strong contested pack marks.

so the player streaming forward has at least three options.

1. kick a goal himself.

2: pass to leading riewoldt.

3: long bomb to kosi and the crumbers.


rather than just (2: pass to leading riewoldt) as has been the case all too often in the past.

my forward line atm looks like this:

c: gram, hayes, gilbert
hf: goddard, riewoldt, dal santo
f: milne, kosi, schneider/m. gardiner.

and if it's not working on a particular day you can swap them around. kosi to chf, bj hff, roo ff or even roo chf, kosi fp, bj ff.

plenty of flexibility there and plenty of guys there who can put a score on the board.

the ability to convert opportunities to scores is what separates good teams from also-rans.


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Post: # 476515Post saintsrule »

schneider will get more than milne i think


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Post: # 476517Post Russman »

Provided we don't go all defensive and slow-tempo like Sydney , Schneider should get a greater number of goal scoring opportunities with us compared to when he was at Sydney.


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Post: # 476523Post spert »

I think in current footy, just relying on a FF and CHF for the bulk of goalkicking is not enough, so goals need to come from elsewhere too. We really need our onballers and midfielders to step up a gear in 2008 and also get more out of our half forward flankers. Kozi may still need to move around the ground, so probably not ideal at FF. I thought Goddard might be worth a shot at FF for a while.


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Post: # 476524Post spidoir »

Fair, but i'm not sure if that is the way we should be heading. it seems that the game is evolving such that you do not want 1 or 2 targets with others chipping in, instead you need a variety of options that are consistently dangerous.

in the 'traditional' structure, if your targets are not on song, you may struggle to find other avenues to goal because you plan to kick to your ff. i think there is a strong correlation between the number of goals kicked by g and st kilda's result in that game i.e. he kicks 4+ we win, he kicks 1, we lose... yes there are exceptions, but it is a good general observation.

So, sure it would be great to have kosi up front, but we don't need him to kick 60+ in a season.

what we need is 6+ players to be able to kick about 22 goals a game and others who contribute on the fringes. Geelong were a very good side this year without doubt, and they had an average of 11 different goal scorers per game. for further evidence, look at WC. They haven't had a big name forward for the past few years, yet they play good footy and kick lots of goals. this stems from their small forwards kicking 6 or so goals a game between each other, and having their midfielders averagign 1 goal per game too (Judd, Cousins, Embley).

To use the old proverb "don't put all your eggs in one basket". Diversification of goalscoreres is the key to kicking scores consistently. the results follow that.

i think the addition of schneider in this manner is a great acquisition, a proven finisher. and with BJ back next year, he will either free up another option or be one himself.

Don't get me wrong, i would have picked Gehrig every game last year if i could. but now we are presented with an opportunity to reform our forwardline structure with a focus on alternatives rather than just G/Roo/Kosi.

Kosi can still kick a bag, but we dont need HUGE goal scorers to take up the slack, we need others to help out, too.


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Post: # 476528Post carn_sainter »

We get our goals from fast, clean ball movement more than we get them from players A and B...

you'd do better with relative hacks like Cam Mooney getting silver surface than with Justin Koschitzke trying to pick it up off his bootlaces in a crowd everytime...

we'll also go a long, long way getting every single player on the list to pick up their kicking skills for goal, which were generally rubbish all 2007 long


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Post: # 476549Post Barney2 »

I think our forward line is potent. Rooey at Centre half forward. Kossy floating in the forward line, Milney and schneider can easily kick 25 goals each and play up, C Gardiner can kick goals too if he is up to it, Fiora can kick goals too if played ona half forward with Monty, and if Gardiner can get his body right, he too can kick goals with what he prooven at West Coast. It only worries me that our mid fielders dont kick enough of them. I would like to see Del and Hayes kick more goals as with the top 4 teams, their mid fielders always contribue to the score board such as Geelong with Ablett, Ling and Bartel and with West Coast with Kerr, Fletcher and Embley. We have the talent too. Anyway, time will tell.


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Post: # 476554Post yipper »

No doubt we are still potent in attack - been added to with Schneider and (to a lesser extent) Charlie Gardner who has always been a forward. Milne will become far more dangerous if the opposition look to mind Schneider - I believe Rooey will hover closer to goals this season and Kossi looks ready to step up to the podium as a genuine star. Goddard could also figure prominently up forward with his sublime kicking skills. Our on-ballers should be better with both Ball and Hayes much fitter. I hope Geary and/or Armitage step up and become players - cos this will add enormously to an already top level midfield. so I expect our team will function a lot better with a full season of the RL style under their belts and a full pre-season backed by a ramped up fitness regime.


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Post: # 476556Post Armoooo »

Barney2 wrote:I think our forward line is potent. Rooey at Centre half forward. Kossy floating in the forward line, Milney and schneider can easily kick 25 goals each and play up, C Gardiner can kick goals too if he is up to it, Fiora can kick goals too if played ona half forward with Monty, and if Gardiner can get his body right, he too can kick goals with what he prooven at West Coast. It only worries me that our mid fielders dont kick enough of them. I would like to see Del and Hayes kick more goals as with the top 4 teams, their mid fielders always contribue to the score board such as Geelong with Ablett, Ling and Bartel and with West Coast with Kerr, Fletcher and Embley. We have the talent too. Anyway, time will tell.
The reason why Geelong and West Coast's midfielders kick so many goals are because they don't have Riewoldt, Koschitzke and Gehrig to kick to...
Our midfielder should step up this year and I would expect Fiora to get 20+ goals this year, the only thing that stopped him this year was his accuracy.
I would expect 120+ from Roo and Kosi
45+ from Schneider + Milne
30 from Dal/Lenny/Ball
and hopefully more from players like Goddard, Gram, Montagna and Xavier...


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Re: St Kilda forward structure 2008: where do we get the goa

Post: # 476573Post saintsRrising »

Riewoldting wrote:
I suspect that Voss and Gehrig notified Lyon of their intentions as early as possible to give him maximum notice before trade week and the draft.
I suspect that G might have....but I also suspect thar RL would have prompted Voss to retire.....rather than it being Vossies idea.

If he did not retire I suspect he would have been delisted...


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Post: # 476575Post n1ck »

Milne - Kosi - Resting Ruckman / Allen

Schneider - Roo - X Clarke / Resting Midfielder / Harvey

I reckon with that we can nab quite a few goals.

Tall. Athletic. Agile. Strong. Quick.

Then you have Dal, Joey, Lenny and Fizza all coming through the middle. Bakes usually pops up with 5 or 10 a season.

Gram, BJ, Chips, Raph, Gilbert and Goose all play at times as running defenders and can slot them from 50.

Schneider is the missing link in our forward structure for mine.


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Re: St Kilda forward structure 2008: where do we get the goa

Post: # 476576Post saintsRrising »

Riewoldting wrote:
30 goals: Adam Schneider
Very smart trading by the Saints. Schneider to play exclusively as a specialist forward - this is our Steve Johnson.
If you can believe what RL has been reported as saying in the press Schneider will take his turn through the midfield as well as his forward role...

BORN AGAIN
Saints excited to snap up former Osborne star
By BRETT KOHLHAGEN

ST KILDA coach Ross Lyon has hinted Sydney Swans signing Adam Schneider will spend more time in the midfield after being snapped up by the Saints in yesterday’s AFL trade.

After securing Schneider and Swans premiership teammate Sean Dempster in exchange for selection No.26, Lyon said the former Osborne junior would be rotated through the centre with Luke Ball, Lenny Hayes, Nick Dal Santo and Robert Harvey.
Last edited by saintsRrising on Mon 15 Oct 2007 6:28pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Post: # 476580Post n1ck »

Most HFFers get rotated through the middle.


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Post: # 476607Post saintsRrising »

As Riewoldting has demonstrated in 2008 the Saints forward line should have many different paths to goal which makes us less predicatable and more capable of kicking winning scores.


The consequences of one of our forwards such GTrain in 2007 haing a bad game will be less significant.


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