bulking up.....

[rodgerfox]

Fodey wasn't massive.

.

Your memory is at fault....there was one Summer where Fode re-emerged a lot bigger than he was in the previous season.

I know Fodey personally.

And no, my memory isn't at fault.

Ask him then if there was one season where he built up then.

Funnily enough, the year he gained the most weight was when he started working with Peter McConville as a plumber.

He built up every year though. Nothing out of the ordinary.

And his size had nothing to do with his form.

[rodgerfox]

I have stated that you need to get MOST things right....not all things...

Geelong has done most things right and furether addressed their definciences.

No team is perfect...and about Geelong only weakness is perhaps a bit of extra pace.

Frogshyt, frogshyt and more frogshyt.

However they have:
* THREE guys that can playruck.....the Saints do not..indeed we might not even have one if Gardi is not fit

Always did - it's just that this year they were all fit. Last year Ottens was unfit and so was King.

*A solid defence with a great FB....the Saints do WHEN Max is fit

This year Harley and Egan were fit - they weren't last year.

*MANY forward options..small medium and tall...the Saints do not have any medium forwards

Last year Johnson and Chapman weren't fit. This year they were.

*More than amples guys to run thru the midfield...the Saints weree undermanned in numbers in 2007.

Last year Wojinski, Enright and ABlett weren't fit - this year they were.

*Good depth with no poor players in their 22....the Saints bottom six is week

More frogshyt.

Hunt, Stokes and Byrnes are duds. Nathan Ablett is hopeless.

This shows when your good players aren't available and these other guys need to be more than just 'bit' players. Like last year.

*addressed their fitness and conditioning side with the rebuild starting in MAY 2006 with the appointment of a new Club Doc fresh from two years as Head Coach fora Premier League Team in the UK.....and continuing on with the apointments mentioned earlier in the string.... The saints have muudled around and ONLY in mid season 2007 ayear after the cats have they started to get their act into gear and with the appointment of Misson they are on the right track.

And that's the one thing they did that made the difference.

A team has to doa lot more than get its players fit....fitness and conditioning is only one factor.

Of course they do. f*** me.

However, you can do everything and they won't b worth a pinch of shiit unless you're fit and on the park.

If the Ctas had not down the other things right then they would not have won the flag in 2007.

they needed Bomber to have the time to develop their players...and they needed the input of Ray McLean.

bulls***. The most irrelevant part of what happened at Geelong is what you're just posted above.

Fitness is important....but so are many other factors.

Of course there are - but none cancel out all the others like fitness.

[Dan Warna]

he came out and kicked 3 . 5 or something with some power leading and marking, and everyone thought he was going to be the next plugger...

[aussiejones]

But for a kick Girlong could have been out of the GF ....
Finished 3rd.

Lets not overrate their GF win. They f@n struggled against the Filth

[saintsRrising]

Memo to RL From Rodger....

Dear RL don't worry about having more midfielders, a half forward or more ruckman. It is all a waste of time.


Memo to GW from Rodger.Dear GW...how lucky are you as the only thinga club needs to do is get their players fit and boy have you arrived at the right time with Misson, Ross Smith and the AIS guys all on board secured bu RB before you gave him the heave ho.

So don't worry about all that extra money for the recruitment department or for player develop. It is all just fog###

Also tell Burkey that he and his footy committe can get on the p*** as there is no need for innovation in footbal and so there main reason for being is just frog***t


Your Pal Rodger



Yeh sure Rodg...give it a try maybe they will agree with you

[stinger]

now now children...play nice....


cricket is pretty good at the moment....on fox sports two.....

[saintsRrising]

This year Harley and Egan were fit - they weren't last year.

.

Sorry I must have watched the wrong GF...where abouts did Egan play again????



The game I watched the Cats had depth and so could still play a solid back six in the GF without Egan.

The sesaon I watched with the Saints whenever Max was out we in the main struggled at FB.

[saintsRrising]

If the Cats had not down the other things right then they would not have won the flag in 2007.

they needed Bomber to have the time to develop their players...and they needed the input of Ray McLean.

bulls***. The most irrelevant part of what happened at Geelong is what you're just posted above.

.

Well maybe you are correct Rodge...and Bomber and all the Geelong assitansts are wrong and are all actively going out of their way to lie in the media.

the version I have read such as the article posted in the stringer earlier say it was vital.

Bomber when OnThe Couch said his change to have more time to concentrate on beinga coach was in hindsight the best thing that had happened to him as he himseld did not realise how much the extraneous things were distrating him.


As as for ray McLean....the Cats state this was the main reason for the Cats turning themselves around mentally...particulary Mooney and Ablett....but hey Rodg what would they know.....they are all only the Cat Coaches and Conditioning Staff and following your logic must all be clueless.

[rodgerfox]

Bomber when OnThe Couch said his change to have more time to concentrate on beinga coach was in hindsight the best thing that had happened to him as he himseld did not realise how much the extraneous things were distrating him.
As as for ray McLean....the Cats state this was the main reason for the Cats turning themselves around mentally...particulary Mooney and Ablett....but hey Rodg what would they know.....they are all only the Cat Coaches and Conditioning Staff and following your logic must all be clueless.

You've obviously forgotten during your childish smart arse rant, that Geelong were a kick away from the GF in 2004 - before these ground breaking changes were made.

They were also 4 goals in front before they lost 4 players to injury in the last Q in 2005 against Sydney - which if they won they would have played a decimated St.Kilda for a spot in the GF. Again before they rewrote the way football clubs work at the start of 2007.

Yet you think this was mere fluke because a with doctor came along and fixed everything and Bomger Thompson could now teach grown men who have been playing football for years how to play?

I wonder how Guru Ray's work would have looked had Ottens, Chapman, Egan, Harley, Wojinski, Enright, King etc. all been injured this year? I wonder what difference Bomber's masterful teachings would have achieved?

[rodgerfox]

This year Harley and Egan were fit - they weren't last year.

.

Sorry I must have watched the wrong GF...where abouts did Egan play again????

The game I watched the Cats had depth and so could still play a solid back six in the GF without Egan.

The sesaon I watched with the Saints whenever Max was out we in the main struggled at FB.

Whenever Max was out - plus an injured CHB you should add.

And you've backed up my point again.

Take Scarlett out, and Egan out then see how great their depth would be. Or even go back to last year and take out Egan and Harley and you see how wonderful their depth is.

[saintsRrising]

You've obviously forgotten during your childish smart arse rant, that Geelong were a kick away from the GF in 2004 - before these ground breaking changes were made.

?

Interesting...so you do not believe that the Cats of 2007 were not a very much better team than the Cats of 2004???





Also how to you explain how a year prior that the injury ravaged Lions won a flag? Their dressing room was described as being like a hospital ward with more injections than Kingscross has on any given night.

[Oh When the Saints]

Most of the Cats improvement over 3 years has come from experience and fitness.

They have had only 3 players retire from their list in 4 years. That's phenomenal. The rest have just kept plugging away as a group.

[saintsRrising]

Most of the Cats improvement over 3 years has come from experience and fitness.

They have had only 3 players retire from their list in 4 years. That's phenomenal. The rest have just kept plugging away as a group.

No according to Roge it is only fitness.


Evidently an extra 50 games per player counts for naught

[carn_sainter]

To be able to make the short sprints and second efforts in the last quarter of a game, you need the aerobic endurance.

Not really

conditioning isn't a matter of just running or just weights...specificity is key...

weight training provides many vital benefits...by enhancing the performance of type 2b fibres, you enhance your ability to produce high intensity movements such as sprints and 2nd efforts...these are not greatly influenced by 'aerobic' training...

having said that, the longer that you can prolong your anaerobic threshold (the point at which it becoms a lot harder to maintain the same work rate) the better able you are to produce high intensity sprint efforts and recover to a standard which doesn't leave you knackered...

this threshold training can be done in running/weights/many ways, even so it is only one piece of it all, but an important one...


i mean, as long as this bulk is muscle which has been arrived at through specific, functional training, it can only be a benefit

it's not the ends that count, it's the means...

being 'bulky' can definitely help...depending on how you came to be that way...


we should all admit that we don't really know what we're talking about on this matter of player conditioning...


but i will say that i'm quite sure that running away from the gym because it will slow you down is silly, silly thinking

[saintsRrising]

Ottens,

Ottens/? But Roger why are you mentioning him??

According to you it is only countering injuries that matter.

Ottens was traded for from the Tigers to addressa weakness that the cats had.


So why did they do that Roger...if it only fitness that matters.??? Why did they trade???


The PF against the Pies that I watched Ottens kept the Cats in the game and without him the Pies probably would have been in the GF.


That would seem to me to bea clear example that you need to do most things right....and not just address fitness.


The Cats knew that they week for big fellas and madea trade to get him.

[saintsRrising]

Yet you think this was mere fluke because a with doctor came along and fixed everything and Bomger Thompson could now teach grown men who have been playing football for years how to play?

I wonder how Guru Ray's work would have looked had Ottens, Chapman, Egan, Harley, Wojinski, Enright, King etc. all been injured this year? I wonder what difference Bomber's masterful teachings would have achieved?

Rodger......as I have REPEATEDLY said player fitness and conditioning is important.

So no fluke...and as I have posted it was a reasonaed and systematic approach the Ctas went through to improve their fitness and conditiong.

Gura Ray as you call him was at the Saints with Alaves in 97...was with the Swans when they made the GF and won a flag....and was at the Cats when they won their falg.


So you believe that he was not at all a factor.........and that his presence with these clubs at those times was purely coincidential??

I guess you also believe that Roos, Alves and the Cats coaches praise of Mclean is all fanciful????? They must bow to your greater wisdom.

[rodgerfox]

Ottens,

Ottens/? But Roger why are you mentioning him??
According to you it is only countering injuries that matter.
Ottens was traded for from the Tigers to addressa weakness that the cats had.
So why did they do that Roger...if it only fitness that matters.??? Why did they trade???
The PF against the Pies that I watched Ottens kept the Cats in the game and without him the Pies probably would have been in the GF.
That would seem to me to bea clear example that you need to do most things right....and not just address fitness.
The Cats knew that they week for big fellas and madea trade to get him.

Ottens was recruited as a forward.

He has had minimal impact at Geelong as a forward.

[saintsRrising]

Ottens was recruited as a forward.

He has had minimal impact at Geelong as a forward.

But Rodger what as that got to do with fitness...your sole reason for success???

[rodgerfox]

Most of the Cats improvement over 3 years has come from experience and fitness.

They have had only 3 players retire from their list in 4 years. That's phenomenal. The rest have just kept plugging away as a group.

No according to Roge it is only fitness.


Evidently an extra 50 games per player counts for naught

No, you're being silly now.

What I've said all along - and maintain, is that fitness overrides all other factors.

You can do everything, cross every t, dot every i, cover every base - but if your players aren't fit and on the park they count for squat.

Every premiership team over the past decade at least, has had this above other teams - a fit list in September.

This is what seperates them from the rest - not all the other crap you go on about.

All clubs do the same things that Geelong do. You talk about addressing holes in their list - every club does this.

You talk about getting Guru Ray in - every club does this.

You talk about all sorts of shiit that you see as being the reason for a club's success - but it's frogshyt. All clubs do just about everything the same. If not the same, very, very similarly.

As I said, the difference between the top 4 clubs and the rest is injuries and their development (ie. the extra 50 games you mentioned above).

The difference between the premier and the other top 4 clubs, is luck.

If not for an ounce of luck, Geelong would not have even been in the GF.

If not for an ounce of luck, Port would not have been in the GF.

If not for an ounce of luck, a fit West Coast may have handed Collingwood their 3rd GF loss this decade.


In 2004, if not for an ounce of luck we may have been belted by Brisbane for the 3 time in a month in the GF.

In 2006, if not for an ounce of luck Geelong may have beaten West Coast for their first flag in 43 years - and John Worsfold would be known as the greatest talent waster of all time.


For some reason, and I don't know what it is, football culture does not allow people to point to injuries for a reason for a loss, and it doesn't allow people to face reality and admit that luck is the single most important factor in the game.

[saintsRrising]

Looks like RL is into frogshyt too..

"We look forward to '08, and if every player buys in on those aims that we committed to today when we looked at each other in the eye, then success is not far away from St Kilda," Lyon said.


and looks like roo believes in frogshyt too:

Roo at the B&F

"Until we have everyone asking themselves honestly the question 'am I doing enough' and challenging each other on it, then we're not going to achieve what we want to achieve." Saints coach Ross Lyon said the players had held a meeting to outline their objectives for 2008, following on from a mid-2007 meeting in which they attempted to put right their second half of the season.


Personally I am VERy pleased that Rl and roo both belive that "frogshyt" as you call it Roadger is a vital part of the team improving.


It sounds like to me that while yes fitness is one vital are to improve in that both ross and Roo believe that the players (and Roos too) have to takea big mental step forward in 2008.,,,,,and to not just assume that getting physically fit will do it all for them.

[rodgerfox]

Looks like RL is into frogshyt too..

"We look forward to '08, and if every player buys in on those aims that we committed to today when we looked at each other in the eye, then success is not far away from St Kilda," Lyon said.


and looks like roo believes in frogshyt too:

Roo at the B&F

"Until we have everyone asking themselves honestly the question 'am I doing enough' and challenging each other on it, then we're not going to achieve what we want to achieve." Saints coach Ross Lyon said the players had held a meeting to outline their objectives for 2008, following on from a mid-2007 meeting in which they attempted to put right their second half of the season.


Personally I am VERy pleased that Rl and roo both belive that "frogshyt" as you call it Roadger is a vital part of the team improving.


It sounds like to me that while yes fitness is one vital are to improve in that both ross and Roo believe that the players (and Roos too) have to takea big mental step forward in 2008.,,,,,and to not just assume that getting physically fit will do it all for them.

So you think we're the only club that believes this? And if we win the flag, it will be because of the above attitude?

This is exactly my point.

All clubs do this! All clubs say this! This is not some secret change that we've made which will give us the deg over everyone else!


If we win the flag, it will because of the following -

- We are at a stage of our develpoment where we're capable of taking our chances when they arrive
- We have our list available and fit
- We have some luck, or our opponents have some bad luck


There are probably 6 or 7 clubs in the same boat.

All will be addressing their list, all will be looking for Guru Rays, all will be wanting their players to commit, all will be doing pretty much the same things - it's the uncontrollables that will be the difference.

[spert]

Tell ya what happened at Geelong.. Bomber got the gun put to his head by the board, and the players as a group got the finger pointed at them and decided to get behind Bomber and basically get off their slack bums.. they got fitter and were IMPORTANTLY blessed with negligable injury issues. Remember back in '97 when Alves had his head on the chopping block early in the season..the playing group had the finger pointed at them and decided to get behind Alves and the rest was history though guess what.. we lost our two late season in-form big men, Vidovic and Everitt come GF time, and as a result we lost our crash and bash grunt as the game went on and it really showed how crucial it is to the result by losing key players.

[Oh When the Saints]

Vidovic's loss was bigger IMO.

Imagine him in a Grand Final.

The Crows would have been four men down by half-time, and Vidovic would have been the first AFL player sent off.

He would never have played again, but St Kilda would have a flag.

[saintsRrising]

- We have some luck, or our opponents have some bad luck


There are probably 6 or 7 clubs in the same boat.

All will be addressing their list, all will be looking for Guru Rays, all will be wanting their players to commit, all will be doing pretty much the same things - it's the uncontrollables that will be the difference.

Luck??

Uncontrollables???

Sure there are items of both....but much of what you refer to were in fact controllable.


Over the last several years there was a systematic failure by the Saints as a club to control what should have been controllable.

Saying we had bad luck with injuries is mainly just covering up either incompeteance or stupidity or both by the Saints.


The Saints underachiveing over the last 3 years can be squarely sheeted down to poor performance bythose in control of the playing group.




*The Sainst player conditioning and fitnmess management was dismal.

*Post Waldon the clubs trading and drafting of rejected players from other clubs wasa disgrace (This hurt our dept and the quality of our best 22)

* The underutilisation of the Rookie system post Milne was incompetence anda clear example of the club getting it wrong (again this definitely hurt our depth and possibly could have delivered some very good players. but asa minimum our bottom 6 would have been better).






"Luck...and uncontrollables"....bah humbug.......


The Saints should have controlled our recruitment better.

We should have controlled our player conditioning and fitness better. Yes impact type injuries are probably uncontrollable....but soft tissues injuries should have been controlled far better.

By and large the Saints managed to manufature bad fortune.....recruiting rejected hacks and conditioning players so that they suffered more soft tissue injuries than they should.



Carpe Diem....but the Saints did not...rather than seizing the day we fumbled it badly.


Best list I have seen in my time of follwing the sainst and we bungled it badly....not through bad luck but through bad management and coaching.

[rodgerfox]

- We have some luck, or our opponents have some bad luck


There are probably 6 or 7 clubs in the same boat.

All will be addressing their list, all will be looking for Guru Rays, all will be wanting their players to commit, all will be doing pretty much the same things - it's the uncontrollables that will be the difference.

Luck??

Uncontrollables???

Sure there are items of both....but much of what you refer to were in fact controllable.


Over the last several years there was a systematic failure by the Saints as a club to control what should have been controllable.

Saying we had bad luck with injuries is mainly just covering up either incompeteance or stupidity or both by the Saints.


The Saints underachiveing over the last 3 years can be squarely sheeted down to poor performance bythose in control of the playing group.




*The Sainst player conditioning and fitnmess management was dismal.

*Post Waldon the clubs trading and drafting of rejected players from other clubs wasa disgrace (This hurt our dept and the quality of our best 22)

* The underutilisation of the Rookie system post Milne was incompetence anda clear example of the club getting it wrong (again this definitely hurt our depth and possibly could have delivered some very good players. but asa minimum our bottom 6 would have been better).






"Luck...and uncontrollables"....bah humbug.......


The Saints should have controlled our recruitment better.

We should have controlled our player conditioning and fitness better. Yes impact type injuries are probably uncontrollable....but soft tissues injuries should have been controlled far better.

By and large the Saints managed to manufature bad fortune.....recruiting rejected hacks and conditioning players so that they suffered more soft tissue injuries than they should.



Carpe Diem....but the Saints did not...rather than seizing the day we fumbled it badly.


Best list I have seen in my time of follwing the sainst and we bungled it badly....not through bad luck but through bad management and coaching.

What does that have to do with anything we've been talking about?

If you want to start yet another thread or debate about what the Saints did right or wrong over the past 4 years, then go for it. But please leave it out of this thread.

And what's with the triple spacing? Takes up for too much room on the page.