St KFC Cult of Messiah....

[joffaboy]

Does anyone really see SFF as 'messiahs' though?

I think alot of people simply realise that under this current board we are heading downhill and we need change.

No messiahs, no 'second coming', no 'take us to the promised land', just the need to change.

What we have in place on-field is fine - it's just that we're covering that large cracks with sticky tape off it.

Lets hope so. But thats all it is, on a wing and a preyer

Joffaboy, you are getting sucked in big time by the press on this one.

You continue to use this derisive insult every time someone makes a valid buit critical point on the FFS or the current challenge.

Heres the reason why i feel that the article had a ring of truth to it. I moved to Melbourne in 1988 after supporting a team in RL in Sydney all my life that had won 4 flags in 8 year. They have now won six in 27, and a renown in Sydney for their winning culture. Before their breakthrough in 1980 they had not won a flag in 38 years.

They have had huge dramas (losing all their competition points for SC rorting, involved in a huge rape allegation, boofhead supporters) but the club stayed focused and still managed to win a flag.

They have alway concentrated on team never on personality.

Coming to Melbourne and watching the Saints couldn't have been different in supporter mentality. The Saints at the time revered Doc as coach and the big four plugger, loewe, Harvey, and Winmar. This lauding went on for years. This was followed by the sacking of Alves for the pop star Watson, followed by celebrety Blight, and then the two messiahs Thomas and Butters.
With the list put together and the two messiahs in place we all thought it was time for a flag.
Now that has soured the unwashed are ;looking for a new messiah. The indecent rush to the new saviours headed by Nathan Burke (with Westaway in the shadows).

It is very simple from an "outsider" who has seen and been intimately involved with a winning culture to see the desperation of the Saint supporter.

This is borne out from 1 flag in a hundered year. It really isn't their fault, but to deny it exists and blithely blame "the media" is to bury your head in the sand.

And Richter I call Westaway an incompetent gorilla because after he had been around 5 minutes he was mudslinging in the most idiotic and seedy, turgid, and unseemly way that I thought the bloke is unfit to lead our club.

Your standards my find it acceptable to for Westaway to be in the gutter with his very first comments, but I find it totally unacceptable and disgraceful.

So go on have another crack. I bet I will start to hear the calls of disloyal and me not being a real St.Kilda supporter so because I am not being cowed by the baying mob.

I said last week this place is reminding me of the Nuremburg Rallies. No alternate views will be tolerated especially if they are critical of the new saviour

[stinger]

what a load of crap......flowering insider...yeah probably a disenfranchised whinger.....

[joffaboy]

what a load of crap......flowering insider...yeah probably a disenfranchised whinger.....

Excellent post.

[rodgerfox]

With the list put together and the two messiahs in place we all thought it was time for a flag.
Now that has soured the unwashed are ;looking for a new messiah. The indecent rush to the new saviours headed by Nathan Burke (with Westaway in the shadows).

It is very simple from an "outsider" who has seen and been intimately involved with a winning culture to see the desperation of the Saint supporter.

This is borne out from 1 flag in a hundered year. It really isn't their fault, but to deny it exists and blithely blame "the media" is to bury your head in the sand.

So go on have another crack. I bet I will start to hear the calls of disloyal and me not being a real St.Kilda supporter so because I am not being cowed by the baying mob.

I said last week this place is reminding me of the Nuremburg Rallies. No alternate views will be tolerated especially if they are critical of the new saviour

Nonsensical, emotive ramblings.

People forget that the St.Kilda footy club started 100 and something years ago as a junior footy club.

Even our own supporters use this '100 years and 1 flag' line. We weren't a genuine club for about first 30 years.

Sydney have only 1 flag. Collingwood have won 1 flag in about 60 years. The Bulldogs one flag only, and it was nearly 60 years ago. Fitzroy don't even exist, nor to South Melbourne.

Freo nothing at all. Geelong's last one was 50 years ago.

But our own supporters see us as 'the' losers of the comp.


As for this comment - "With the list put together and the two messiahs in place we all thought it was time for a flag."

Nonsense. Some did - sounds like you were one of them.

All it did was put us in a position to challenge - along with about 10 other clubs.

Our supporters got sucked in at the time too. 'This group will get a couple of flags' etc. etc. What garbage.

West Coast had the best midfield ever assembled and the best ruckman in the comp - plus a home ground advantage like no other - and only won one flag. By 2 points.

It doesn't work that way.

SFF aren't a messiah. I haven't seen a skerrick of evidence to suggest that any Saints supporters think they are either.

They are an alternative to a Board that has some large cracks appearing in it.

Why read into it any more that that?

[joffaboy]

[Nonsensical, emotive ramblings.

More attacking of the poster.

Mods, this posters has begun his typical bullying tactics with anyone who dares to disagree with his rigid and inward looking view of the world.

He has inferred that I am gullible (suck in by media ) defeatist attitude (because i dared to say the club is in turmoil).

Now the above.

This poster has been warned about his abuse and insulting a number of times by the mods.

Could you please ask him to stay on topic and stop with the abus because he can handle the reality of the situation.

I know I prick a nerve because he recognises what i say is has an element of truth that must directly point to him - how else can I explain this campaign of abuse and insults - but really he should attempt to stick to the topic, which is the Messiah Complex of the STKFC and how it is recognised by numerous people.

IF RF can handle this he should remain silent and stop with the personal stuff.

[rodgerfox]

[Nonsensical, emotive ramblings.

More attacking of the poster.

Mods, this posters has begun his typical bullying tactics with anyone who dares to disagree with his rigid and inward looking view of the world.

He has inferred that I am gullible (suck in by media ) defeatist attitude (because i dared to say the club is in turmoil).

Now the above.

This poster has been warned about his abuse and insulting a number of times by the mods.

Could you please ask him to stay on topic and stop with the abus because he can handle the reality of the situation.

I know I prick a nerve because he recognises what i say is has an element of truth that must directly point to him - how else can I explain this campaign of abuse and insults - but really he should attempt to stick to the topic, which is the Messiah Complex of the STKFC and how it is recognised by numerous people.

IF RF can handle this he should remain silent and stop with the personal stuff.

Unless the above post is a joke, perhaps you should use PMs.

I highly doubt anyone else needs or wants to read this.

[satchmo]

I'm not sure that you can label GT/RB as Messiahs, if they fit the description then who doesn't ?

[borderbarry]

A bit of nonsense from Rogerfox. The Saints were one of the original members of the VFL. We were not a JUNIOR club at all, we were the same as the others. Although at one stage the VFL were the junior competition to the VFA.

[The Peanut]

So do you think anyone who has reservations about the new messiahs will rejoice if the whole thing falls on it arse?

Fair Dinkum. You think our egos are so big that to prove an internet point we would be happy if our fears are realised?

Thats right i would be wrapt for the club to go down the s.hitter so I could proclaim some kind of moral internet victory

God help us and our poor rabble of a club.

Sorry 'joffaboy' - I didn't mean to single any one (group) out - I think that the general essence of what I was trying to say was much better described by 'rogerfox' in his 'What's the big deal' thread and I apologise if I appeared 'holier than thou'.

. . . but that does not preclude scrutiny of the new emporers.

I agree totally with this - we will have to be vigilent to keep them honest to their word and that they carry out their obligations well. If they are successful and become too complacant, then it will be time for them to move on too - and if they resist, the members should give them a push.

A change of board instigated by new blood and supported my a majority of members is a postive step forward, if the members are not satisfied with the current model. Most members do not jump ship at every port - the Steve Bedwell challenge idea was a good example of that. IMHO

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Look at the players we have had over years - we should own 3 or 4 at least Premiership Cups.....but somehow we find a way to implode and wait for the next messiah to roll in.

FWIW, IMO the above is part of the "cult of the messiah" mentality. The messiah finally takes us there, where we've deserved to be all along, but through unfairness/bad luck/whatever, we aven't made it and others have.

I think it indicative where jb is alluding to St. K looking up to Nth Melb, who remain a viable clube by the skin of their teeth if at all... we'll get our premiership when the view of those who make it happen isn't looking outward, it's looking inward, and just working hard for it. It's incredibly cliche, but it's also true. We're not entitled to any more flags than we've got. There's no real reason to believe the '04 or '05 teams would have won if they got through, there's no point bemoaning the lack of Spider in '97. We attract messias because everyone wants to be THE guy who finally takes us to the promised land.

It's an interesting debate. Personally, I'd side with those who say Westaway does fall into the messiah category - I can't see where those saying he's the opposite are coming from... he's stepping in with a couple of big names, promising to spend big, and oh by the way, we're going to be moral leaders as well (not drinking or drug taking). Even the soft light publicity photo has me thinking televangelist.

I think it very dissapointing that the goals stated by the SFF group could only be acieved via a board challenge which just happens to come at a time when the current Presidents popularity is at an all time low... having announced their presence, while there was no need to take Butterss (sit down for coffee" route, it would have been simple to say "if we don't see x, y, and z, we WILL challenge", but we'll never know what the result would have been, because one of the premises of this challenge is that Butterss needs to go... which again, strikes me as being about the cult of personality.

Now, to be fair, it may be that the campaign is being run to the cult of personality stylings because it's a members vote, and the majority of members will make their decision based on personality above anything else... the SFF crew have certainly got supporters who think they're very credible.

Personally, I have yet to feel comfortable with the idea of giving them the reigns.

[rodgerfox]

A bit of nonsense from Rogerfox. The Saints were one of the original members of the VFL. We were not a JUNIOR club at all, we were the same as the others. Although at one stage the VFL were the junior competition to the VFA.

The VFL didn't start until 1896.

We were formed in 1873.

However historians believe we first were involved in 1859.

[stinger]

what a load of crap......flowering insider...yeah probably a disenfranchised whinger.....

Excellent post.

of course the artcle is crap jb....messiah...what a joke.......who the f*** is a messiah on the rebel board.....

..we are no different to any other club...was elliott a messiah to carscum...or collo...or their latest money bags...maybe pagan..eh...or judd....ffs......

..and don't rubbish my comments with a dismissive smart arse quip....

[rodgerfox]

..we are no different to any other club...was elliott a messiah to carscum...or collo...or their latest money bags...maybe pagan..eh...or judd....ffs......

Bingo.

[meher baba]

we'll get our premiership when the view of those who make it happen isn't looking outward, it's looking inward, and just working hard for it. It's incredibly cliche, but it's also true. We're not entitled to any more flags than we've got. There's no real reason to believe the '04 or '05 teams would have won if they got through, there's no point bemoaning the lack of Spider in '97.

Very wise words indeed. But, as my earlier post on this thread inferred, isn't the idea that we need to bring in outsiders and benchmark ourselves against an outside model (the Swans, or WCE or whoever) the sort of thinking that gave us our current Messiah in Ross Lyon.

The great think about the original strategy espoused by GT and RB until about the end of 2005 was that it was inwardly-focused in that it involved

(i) getting the club onto a sound financial footing by cutting costs and attracting more members and better sponsors;
(ii) recruiting a whole heap of the best players available through the draft and trade week who would be expected to achieve a benchmark of being selected for 100 games at the club; and
(iii) aiming for a decade of being a serious contender for a flag (with no particular expectation of achieving one by a specified date).

There is no question that this strategy was abandoned at some point by a club which had become impatient. Some would point the finger mainly at GT, who allegedly stopped recruiting for pure talent and started looking to "top up". Others, like myself, would think that the key moment was the loss to the Swans in the PF in 2005, to which the Board overreacted by starting to think that - if we ever wanted to win a flag - we should start modelling ourselves on the Swans both on and off the field. And then along came the Westaway group's great mate Archie with his "best of breed" nonsense which took the club into a world of consultancies (mostly let to organisations close to our Board), aptitude tests and simulation exercises.

As you suggested BAM! (shhhh), people and organisations start looking for Messiahs when they become infused with a sense that they are entitled to success. I know lots of people get a sort of macho thrill at statements like "winning is everything" and "there is no tolerance for failure in this organisation". But, for most people and most organisations, it is a far better approach to work steadily within your limitations to become the best that you can possibly be, rather than to become obsessed with having what others have got and trying to ape what they do, while ignoring the fact that they may possess certain natural or unfair advantages that you can never hope to have.

[GrumpyOne]

I'm not sure that you can label GT/RB as Messiahs, if they fit the description then who doesn't ?

They are not Messiahs, they are just naughty boys.

[Oh When the Saints]

We're a society obsessed with messiahs.

Federal politics has become a cult of personality ... it began with Menzies in the 60's and has drifted that way ever since.

No doubt that throughout St Kilda's history we have turned to one individual to lead us out of the wilderness, but equally we have had moments (1960's) where that has not been the case.


To stick a blanket label on every period in the club's history is a poor generalisation.

Consider each period and each situation on its merits ...


Now I'm going to quote bungiton's post again for you all to read:

Yesterday I rang and spoke to Greg Westaway. To me he is an up-front, honest and sincere type of bloke.

I contacted him to ask if with all the shite being posted here, along with valid criticims, I asked if he could register and talk to us here tonight, to which he immediately agreed.

Sadly he contatcted me later to apologise that because this was a public and unofficial forum, he was instructed to renege on the deal he made with me.

During our conversation I asked questions pertinent to the major attacks his detractors are posting on here.

We spoke regarding the issue of Burkie being the public face of the SFF campaign, He informed me that Burkie was sick to the guts in his period as a player and member of the coaching staff, regarding the facilities and services available for players. The playing group had nowhere near the resources needed to be competitive in this competition. Also Greg is a very private individual who highly values his privacy, He is sacrificing a lot to lead this ticket. A man who values obscurity to give his privacy up to run for a fanciful ticket for his own worth, I think not.

I spoke of the concerns raised by Joffaboy about how they were going to start a flood of unfunded spending. This is one area the new ticket are certainly not going to go blindly or spend just for the sake of spending.

They do have detailed plans for where monies will be spent as well as detailed plans for increasing memberships, sponsorship and revenue. A number of groups are willing to back this ticket with sponsorship on the proviso they are elected. It's interesting that these parties are not approaching the current board, seems sponsorship money is there on the proviso the current board aren't the ones managing it.

I spoke at length to Greg, found him to be very approachable, very dedicated to the saints and not the fiend he is being portrayed by the media or sections of this board. I get the impression he would rather not be doing this, after all he stressed a few times during our conversation how much he values his privacy, he's gotten to the point a lot of people had arrived at long before the challenge appeared, being that the current board was fractured, stagnating and innefective, with little vision for the future and that change was neccessary for this club to go forward.

If you get the opportunity, hat to the man, you'll realise his ambition is for the club, the people assembled for this challenge are dedicated proffessionals hoping to raise this club further than the pathetic infighting and rubbish it was presented with this year.

[bozza1980]

I think it is a very easy thing for people to suggest their is a messiah complex down Moorabbin way. In a lot of ways it is true.

However, I'm not sure that it has anything to do with the current board challenge. Quite simply, some members are unhappy with the direction of the board and are putting themselves before the members as an alternative.

At the end of the day, regardless of your leaning, this article is just a puff piece for the current board.

[stinger]

Quite simply, some members are unhappy with the direction of the board and are putting themselves before the members as an alternative.

At the end of the day, regardless of your leaning, this article is just a puff piece for the current board.

aint that the truth...

[Otiman]

The latest ploy to secure Judd is just adding fuel to the fire of this thread.

[rodgerfox]

The latest ploy to secure Judd is just adding fuel to the fire of this thread.

So we're the only club interested in Judd?

[Otiman]

So we're the only club interested in Judd?

We're the only club "moving heaven and halos" for him thus far.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

...
Now I'm going to quote bungiton's post again for you all to read:

...They do have detailed plans for where monies will be spent as well as detailed plans for increasing memberships, sponsorship and revenue. A number of groups are willing to back this ticket with sponsorship on the proviso they are elected. It's interesting that these parties are not approaching the current board, seems sponsorship money is there on the proviso the current board aren't the ones managing it.
...

In the words of Greg Westaway: "Rumour and innuendo".

It's interesting that these parties aren't publicly backing the SFF group as far as I know. A public statement from a potential sponsor to that effect would go great lengths to giving me a better reason to vote SFF than simply voting against Butterss.

[joffaboy]

So we're the only club interested in Judd?

We're the only club "moving heaven and halos" for him thus far.

Hmmmm - and planted with the new STKFC board cheersquad Patrick Smith.

Politiking at its finest, but the board knows what appeals to the Saints masses - a new messiah, although I admit a fit Judd is as close to a messiah as one could possibly get.

[The Peanut]

...
Now I'm going to quote bungiton's post again for you all to read:

...They do have detailed plans for where monies will be spent as well as detailed plans for increasing memberships, sponsorship and revenue. A number of groups are willing to back this ticket with sponsorship on the proviso they are elected. It's interesting that these parties are not approaching the current board, seems sponsorship money is there on the proviso the current board aren't the ones managing it.
...

In the words of Greg Westaway: "Rumour and innuendo".

It's interesting that these parties aren't publicly backing the SFF group as far as I know. A public statement from a potential sponsor to that effect would go great lengths to giving me a better reason to vote SFF than simply voting against Butterss.

True - but what sponsor would want their name involved in a (becoming messy) board challenge that is all over the media? The SFF will just have to hope that enough supporters will take them for their word considering their reputations and resources. If that's not enough for some members - they will be forced to either vote for RB or not vote at all.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

...
Now I'm going to quote bungiton's post again for you all to read:

...They do have detailed plans for where monies will be spent as well as detailed plans for increasing memberships, sponsorship and revenue. A number of groups are willing to back this ticket with sponsorship on the proviso they are elected. It's interesting that these parties are not approaching the current board, seems sponsorship money is there on the proviso the current board aren't the ones managing it.
...

In the words of Greg Westaway: "Rumour and innuendo".

It's interesting that these parties aren't publicly backing the SFF group as far as I know. A public statement from a potential sponsor to that effect would go great lengths to giving me a better reason to vote SFF than simply voting against Butterss.

True - but what sponsor would want their name involved in a (becoming messy) board challenge that is all over the media? The SFF will just have to hope that enough supporters will take them for their word considering their reputations and resources. If that's not enough for some members - they will be forced to either vote for RB or not vote at all.

I'm not really criticising SFF on the basis of not naming potential sponsors. Equally to not having the public backing, SFF hasn't built their campaign around that presence. However, the inference has then been made by a poster that on another poster's word, there is sponsorship money in the offing for SFF in excess of that for the Butterss group. Without any accountability (and I'm not calling any of the posters involved or Westaway liars, just commenting that chinese whispers and assumptions are a poor basis for decision making) via the public arena, we have no way of judging one potentials board's sponsorship potential versus another.

I note it mainly because it is a very powerful claim, that would have a big impact on my vote.