historically where we're at

This unofficial St Kilda Saints fan forum is for people of all ages to chat Saints Footy and all posts must be respectful.

Moderators: Saintsational Administrators, Saintsational Moderators

Post Reply
cwrcyn
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4064
Joined: Fri 15 Sep 2006 10:35am
Location: earth
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1311 times

historically where we're at

Post: # 456118Post cwrcyn »

1960s great team, average administration, new debt (Moorabbin)

1970s disintegration of playing list, woeful administration, bad debt

1980s Crap team, terrible administration, loaded with bad debt

1990s Good team, better admistration (Plympton), loaded with debt

2000s Good football team, strong administration, debt cleared


We've taken so long to sure up the ship. For the first time in 40 years we are unburdened by terrible debt. For the first time in 40 years we've run at a profit. For all the speculation about the two opposing camps, I think this is a huge consideration. Better the devil you know? Business administration is one thing, football administration another. The recent football administration has been hamstrung by a stubborn coach. The recent board, irrespective of other things, has delivered consecutive operating profits. The new group appears to be gaining support, but how do any of us know that they'll be any better than the one we've got. I'll be thinking carefulkly before I choose my preferred off-field team.


User avatar
Bernard Shakey
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 11213
Joined: Sun 18 Mar 2007 11:22pm
Location: Down By The River 1989, 2003, 2009 & 2013
Has thanked: 111 times
Been thanked: 130 times

Post: # 456121Post Bernard Shakey »

It's not about the past .

It is about the future.

Bring on the new board and a premiership and the rest will follow.


Old enough to repaint, but young enough to sell
Behind Play
Club Player
Posts: 763
Joined: Tue 19 Jun 2007 7:18pm

Post: # 456126Post Behind Play »

The new group appears to be gaining support, but how do any of us know that they'll be any better than the one we've got.

Buy giving them a chance.


kaos theory
Club Player
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sun 14 Mar 2004 8:38pm
Been thanked: 25 times

Post: # 456129Post kaos theory »

1960s great team, average administration, new debt (Moorabbin)

1970s disintegration of playing list, woeful administration, bad debt

1980s Crap team, terrible administration, loaded with bad debt

1990s Good team, better admistration (Plympton), loaded with debt

2000s Good football team, strong administration, debt cleared
To Update:

- 2007 Good underachiving team, fractered admin, in fighting, loss of vision & sponsors, debt cleared though short-sighted cost cutting
......


cwrcyn
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4064
Joined: Fri 15 Sep 2006 10:35am
Location: earth
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1311 times

Post: # 456137Post cwrcyn »

With such a history of poor financial management, it was important for the current board to clear the debt. I'm not saying they've performed perfectly in all facets of the club, but unless the debt was cleared, we faced treading water in any case.

The current board needs to provide a clear plan to members about its football operations, sponsorship, revenue , etc.

If it does that, and it looks promising, then I see no need go with Westatway's group. If I can't, then I'll seriously look at the new mob.


User avatar
meher baba
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 6873
Joined: Mon 14 Aug 2006 6:49am
Location: Tasmania
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 405 times

Post: # 456147Post meher baba »

It was fantastic that the board cleared the debt.

They did it while simultaneously - thanks to the ridiculous generosity of the current draft system and the coaching input of GT, Bundy, TD and some others - taking us from the bottom of the table to a point where we made the PF two seasons in a row. All the while, we were spending less than virtually every other club on admin and support staff for the football dept.

This is a remarkable achievement. But, in September 2006, the Board lost its way. It became hugely influenced by a feud between its President and the head coach which was totally unrelated to football matters. It then sacked the entire coaching staff (not, in my view, primarily because of the feud: but it must have been a factor) and basically allowed an ex-Carlton mafia with links to BTR Nylex and some Board members to choose the new coach and his support staff (mostly ex-Carlton).

Recruitment consultancies, governance consultancies, change management consultancies were let all over the place: often to companies owned by, or with close ties to, Board members or the aforementioned ex-Carlton mafia. A new Football Manager was brought to the club who was a failed former coach and another member of the ex-Carlton/BTR Nylex mafia. Meanwhile, the club admin and football support operations continued to be run on a shoestring.

The negotiations over the new social club/training facilities went down the toilet: maybe the entire blame for this can be sheeted home to Kingston Council, but who really believes this?

Anyway, to sum up, I reckon that the Butterss-led board is almost certainly the best we've ever had. But it seems to have come off the rails in the last year. So, while it is a terrible shame that we have come to the point of such a public and divisive board challenge, the trye culprits are Butterss and his merry men, not the SFF team.


"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."
- Jonathan Swift
kaos theory
Club Player
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sun 14 Mar 2004 8:38pm
Been thanked: 25 times

Post: # 456195Post kaos theory »

With such a history of poor financial management, it was important for the current board to clear the debt. I'm not saying they've performed perfectly in all facets of the club, but unless the debt was cleared, we faced treading water in any case.

The current board needs to provide a clear plan to members about its football operations, sponsorship, revenue , etc.

If it does that, and it looks promising, then I see no need go with Westatway's group. If I can't, then I'll seriously look at the new mob
The point is that I'm not sure that this current board,led by RB are that experienced or sophisticated in running complex businessess in demanding environments. A single-mindness to retire all debt at the expense of business fundamentals and growth opportunities is pretty dumb.


The new team has personnel with FAR more business calibre, plus a strong mix of football knowledge.....
Thi is what th current board has done....


cwrcyn
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4064
Joined: Fri 15 Sep 2006 10:35am
Location: earth
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1311 times

Post: # 456290Post cwrcyn »

Yep, all interesting points Meher and Kaos. It's what makes the thing so confusing in some respects.

Outside of the debt clearance, I suppose the pertinent questions are:

Why is our revenue so poor?

Why has there been such a mess regarding the Mooorabbin re-development plans?

Why appoint Ken Sheldon as football manager? There are far better people in the industry who could perform that role for us. Definitely a jobs-for-the-boys appointment.


Why do we spend so little on recruiting?


Has Butterss dropped the ball in relation to selecting administrative staff?



At the same time, though, if you can't get on top of the debt, the whole thing falls apart anyway. But, what are the projections for 2008 and beyond.

See, I just keep going round in circles!


spert
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 8817
Joined: Wed 29 Jun 2005 10:39pm
Location: A distant beach
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 380 times

Post: # 456291Post spert »

Dunno about all this, but in my personal and business life, I don't do the next thing until I clear my debts and that doesn't happen overnight. As Butters and his crowd finally got the debt sorted this year, I expect it would take a few years to start building the next phase. I don't want to see the club going back into debt while some new pack of cronies start spending up with no guarantee of any greater success.


User avatar
Brewer
Club Player
Posts: 313
Joined: Sun 06 May 2007 1:52pm

Post: # 456307Post Brewer »

spert wrote:Dunno about all this, but in my personal and business life, I don't do the next thing until I clear my debts and that doesn't happen overnight. As Butters and his crowd finally got the debt sorted this year, I expect it would take a few years to start building the next phase. I don't want to see the club going back into debt while some new pack of cronies start spending up with no guarantee of any greater success.
A FEW YEARS??!!!

So Harvey, Riewoldt, Kosi, Ball, Maxy, are all gone or on the veterans list?!

Rubbish. Time didn't need to stop while we cleared our debt. I'd rather we were still a million in debt but had fitter players that made the top 4 this year, a couple of major sponsors that were sticking with us and a membership of 40,000 plus.

There has been a mixture of questionable priorities and sheer incompetence in this board lately. The sponsorship debacle illustrates this, as does the decline in membership and the fact that one of the best lists in the league couldn't make the 8.
Last edited by Brewer on Fri 14 Sep 2007 5:15pm, edited 1 time in total.


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.
kaos theory
Club Player
Posts: 1521
Joined: Sun 14 Mar 2004 8:38pm
Been thanked: 25 times

Post: # 456317Post kaos theory »

Dunno about all this, but in my personal and business life, I don't do the next thing until I clear my debts and that doesn't happen overnight. As Butters and his crowd finally got the debt sorted this year, I expect it would take a few years to start building the next phase. I don't want to see the club going back into debt while some new pack of cronies start spending up with no guarantee of any greater success..
Those 'pack of cronies' as you may call them, have collectively sucessfully managed over a billion dollars worth of companies.....

What has RB & his clan done???

As I say, puely clearing debt, at the expense of other key facets of a business is dumb, and dangerous to its long-term success


cwrcyn
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 4064
Joined: Fri 15 Sep 2006 10:35am
Location: earth
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1311 times

Post: # 456343Post cwrcyn »

The fitness of the players in recent years has had more to do with the previous coach (who was football manager also) than the board. Since the previous coach's departure, they have poured more money into the football department. Remember, important funds were diverted into very expensive end of season trips organised by the previous coach (to the dismay of the board) - money that could have been spent elsewhere.

When you are in debt, you can't afford to spend big. Is this not logical? Once you're back into debt, you run the risk of going into the vicious cycle of:

We spend more than we have to gain success:

The premiership doesn't eventuate, so now you try to spend more to compete, but that puts you into further debt


The the premiership eludes you again, but now you're in so much debt from the previous years of spending, that you cannot put any more into development and facilities, because you run the risk of going down the poo chute.


The next step is that you've got so much debt that all your energies go into reduction of costs and servicing the debt


That's what has happened to the club previously. It took an eternity to get out of that finiancial quagmire. If you're not careful, things can turn horribly wrong pretty quickly (see Carlton)


The positive thing about the current board is that they have finally cleared a debt that has been haunting St Kilda for decades and been responsible for much on-field and off-field misery.

This year it took its first step in addressing that by changing the football dpeartment structure, injecting more money into it, and getting some experts in to sort out the sort-tissue injury saga.

The only down side to all that was the appointment of Ken Sheldon as football manager.


Debt brings you trouble and doesn't help you one bit when aiming for football excellence. Managing an AFL club is a delicate balancing act in an incredibly competitive financial environment.


User avatar
Brewer
Club Player
Posts: 313
Joined: Sun 06 May 2007 1:52pm

Post: # 456351Post Brewer »

Firstly, if you are turning over $15-$20m a year then clearing a $3.5m debt over 5 or 10 years shouldn't be such a stretch. There are folks in Toorak with mortgages that big.

Secondly, exactly how does clearing our debt mean that we can't give our sponsors the respect they deserve? Surely if revenue is such a priority, you would take measures to worship the ground they walk on? Why then do they sever links in frustration with our board?

Thirdly, if the previous coach had too much power and spent too much on end of season trips, exactly who shoulders the blame for that?

Why do people see this as black or white? Either we spend bugger all on football and clear our debt as soon as possible, or we invest in football and somehow go deeper into debt?

What about a smart management strategy?

What about planning to eliminate debt IN PARTNERSHIP with giving our excellent list a fighting chance at competing at the pointy end?


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.
spert
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 8817
Joined: Wed 29 Jun 2005 10:39pm
Location: A distant beach
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 380 times

Post: # 456355Post spert »

OK, using some of the logic here -next year we win the flag because Harvs and co will still be there and these corporate cronies have managed to run or be involved in a few large companies UNLIKE any board members and Presidents we've had in the past, this will guarantee the flag..so if it doens't happen in 08, it's OK if they take a few years..and that will be OK??


User avatar
Brewer
Club Player
Posts: 313
Joined: Sun 06 May 2007 1:52pm

Post: # 456359Post Brewer »

We have a list that, with a little tweaking, is more than capable of repeated top 4 finishes. We just need to focus the club on giving them the opportunity to do that.

Beyond clearing a debt, what vision or footy focus have we seen from the current admin? They are fractured, frustrated, bitchy, and they don't seem to have much in the way of ideas or positive energy. In fact, there's a considerable amount of negative energy. We need to purge it.

I think we would achive more next year under SKFF than we would under the current mob, and I don't see any reason to believe that the new ticket will run us into the red - they are all very capable business people and just as good with numbers as Butterss. What I do like is their apparent focus on footy, marketing and promotions.


The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.
bigcarl
Saintsational Legend
Posts: 18350
Joined: Thu 11 Mar 2004 1:36am
Has thanked: 1706 times
Been thanked: 792 times

Post: # 456372Post bigcarl »

historical perspective didn't save GT (only the second guy to coach us to the finals three years running) and i don't expect that it will save his former mate RB.

both have been great servants of this club


Post Reply