Deal to get Charman

[Oh When the Saints]

Totally agree with rodgerfox.


We have lost two games in the past 4 years where having an elite ruckman may have influenced the result.

Neither of those matches was a GF, so you can't say it has cost us a premiership.


No way would I give up a pick #9 for Charman ... he is injury prone, and only averages 15 games a year over the past four seasons.


There are far more pressing needs than ruckmen at St Kilda. We are still one of the lowest ranked teams in stoppages in the AFL.

[HarveysDeciple]

Totally agree with rodgerfox.


We have lost two games in the past 4 years where having an elite ruckman may have influenced the result.

Neither of those matches was a GF, so you can't say it has cost us a premiership.


No way would I give up a pick #9 for Charman ... he is injury prone, and only averages 15 games a year over the past four seasons.


There are far more pressing needs than ruckmen at St Kilda. We are still one of the lowest ranked teams in stoppages in the AFL.

agreed

#1 - pacy midfielder, probably two in fact
#2 - medium sized forward to play as third marking target
#3 - Another good solid key back
#4 - Ruckmen.

[bigcarl]

we desperately need a ruckman to allow kosi to play ff

i also agree with st mart that you do not trade your first pick, which should be "spent" on the best available young player in the draft, regardless of type

not a big fan of trading for washed up duds like m clarke and i also share the view that a ruckman must do much more than just win tapouts

if only brooks would pull his finger out and not waste his talent. i've heard he is very skillful for a big bloke but is lazy and a bit of a pussy cat.

these bigger guys often do take longer to develop, so i'm hoping he'll be retained, given some responsibility and told "it's now or never"

hopefully gardiner will come up and there's always blake and even goose to pinch-hit

[evertonfc]

I don't think anybody with a grasp on sanity is suggesting we'll trade pick 9 for Jamie Charman.

The offer worth debating is pick 25 for Charman, whether we're keen on that, and whether Brisbane will accept it.

Like it or lump it, we need a good ruckman. You can't escape it. Just looking at Cox vs Kosi, just watching Cox work him out after the first term was scary to watch. He palmed it with ease to Cousins constantly after quarter time.

It's cost us time and again. Not four points (no single position can do that - obviously), but it's put us behind the eight ball far too often and we need to be giving our midfielders first crack of the footy more often.

[plugger66]

I don't think anybody with a grasp on sanity is suggesting we'll trade pick 9 for Jamie Charman.

The offer worth debating is pick 25 for Charman, whether we're keen on that, and whether Brisbane will accept it.

Maybe I am missing something but where has it been written that Charman wants out and the Lions are willing to trade.

[evertonfc]

I don't think anybody with a grasp on sanity is suggesting we'll trade pick 9 for Jamie Charman.

The offer worth debating is pick 25 for Charman, whether we're keen on that, and whether Brisbane will accept it.

Maybe I am missing something but where has it been written that Charman wants out and the Lions are willing to trade.

Where was it written Birss wanted out and the Bulldogs were willing to trade

Besides, I'm not saying it's a done deal, nor that he wants out. I'm just saying it's worth debating whether we should offer that (pick 25) for his services, and whether they'd want it. Capiche?

[plugger66]

I don't think anybody with a grasp on sanity is suggesting we'll trade pick 9 for Jamie Charman.

The offer worth debating is pick 25 for Charman, whether we're keen on that, and whether Brisbane will accept it.

Maybe I am missing something but where has it been written that Charman wants out and the Lions are willing to trade.

Where was it written Birss wanted out and the Bulldogs were willing to trade

Besides, I'm not saying it's a done deal, nor that he wants out. I'm just saying it's worth debating whether we should offer that (pick 25) for his services, and whether they'd want it. Capiche?

I wasnt having a go at you but we as well have 600 threads on all the players in the AFL.

[St DAC]

I wasnt having a go at you but we as well have 600 threads on all the players in the AFL.

Less the 40 odd we already have of course ...

[plugger66]

I wasnt having a go at you but we as well have 600 threads on all the players in the AFL.

Less the 40 odd we already have of course ...

No we can have them as well on whether we should trade them and who we could get for them.

[nicko016]

I think he's a pretty good ruckmen and I'd be happy to throw a bit at him but porbably not our 1st pick. Maybe pick 27 + pick 43 for Charman + their 4th pick (around 56). I wouldn't discount trading our 1st pick but then it would have to be for someone who would definately solve our problems. Not that Charman wouldn't but theirs a few injury queries over him. Another possiblity would be a go after Blake. Maybe pick 27?

[maverick]

Charman has not signed and it has been mentioned he wants to come to Vic, nothing wrong with speculation surely.

As for needing a ruckman I can't believe some on here think we don't need one.

Every time we play West Coast Cox is BOG, and when we play Port Lade is BOG, it helps them get over the line immeasurably, especially late in the game. Yeah yeah they are top ruckman, but not that dominate when they play other so called top teams.

Everyone in the top 4 has potential AA ruckman, hell even Josh Fraser was BOG and won them the game when the Pies played us.

I agree with people saying Blake is our best ruckman, he is the ONLY one that can get some taps to real advantage, very sad when we can remember each and every one. How good could Dal, Joey and Fiora be if they had taps going their way running away from the pack.

Kosi is OK but has no idea where the taps are going, Rix has no idea full stop and Gardiner is miles away from playing a game.

I agree in principle on keeping the first round pick, but how about we spend a draft pick or two on young unproven ruckman, if we aren't going to seriously trade for one. If not spend pick 9 because the talent doesn't justify it, we need to spend pick 26, its time to unearth something. At this rate Roo and Kosi will be 30 before we finally land one.

Rix has to go, pretending he can plug a hole only hurts us more than giving a Blake or Goose a crack.

Kosi and Roo up forward with a ruck set up that wins taps convincingly more often than not, will instantly transform our team.

I wonder how we would have gone this year if we had of gone for Spider in the off season.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I don't think anybody with a grasp on sanity is suggesting we'll trade pick 9 for Jamie Charman.

The offer worth debating is pick 25 for Charman, whether we're keen on that, and whether Brisbane will accept it.

Like it or lump it, we need a good ruckman. You can't escape it. Just looking at Cox vs Kosi, just watching Cox work him out after the first term was scary to watch. He palmed it with ease to Cousins constantly after quarter time.

It's cost us time and again. Not four points (no single position can do that - obviously), but it's put us behind the eight ball far too often and we need to be giving our midfielders first crack of the footy more often.

Good post... Point taken, Kosi is not up to Cox's standard tapwise. Though converse to the TD game, when we played them at Subi, Kosi was BOG for the first half. Cox only came into it once Kosi tweaked the hami and had to come out of the ruck.

That said, if we're looking to pick someone up to take on Cox, we'll struggle. Charman would (hypothetically) be the best hitout ruck at St. K since Spider. However, he's not Dean Cox mobility wise, and I'd still give Cox the edge at the taps - especially before whoever rucked had a few years to work with the mid team the way Cox has with the guns out west.

I really think rucking in general is one of the big areas that has improved over the last 5 years. I agree with the philosphy a ruck has to do more than tap... trouble is the Saints don't have a single ruckman who is good in the hitouts. For those suggesting Warnock, look what Matty Clarke did to Warnock, he's more of what we have. So from that perspective, I'd really like Charman... except I don't like the idea of carrying 3 injury ridden rucks as the insurance between us and a Rx/Blake ruck combo.

But probably not at the cost of pick #9, and not in the belief he's the answer to Cox or LadeBrisbane would be insane to settle for a 2nd rounder, too many teams need a guy like Charman.

[Dan Warna]

there are two outstanding ruckman in the competition, that are so far apart from the rest its not funny.

Spider and Cox.

after that you have a mixture of midfield type ruckmen of the ilk of stynes in fraser, white and kosi, with all round skills such as marking, goal kicking etc.

then you pretty much have the rest.

you have a couple of freaks like the 9 foot tall 350kg sandilands who is a giant marble statue.

really we aren't going to get a ruckman of the quality of Cox from trading for guys like charman.

cox >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>charman and nothinig is going to change that.

its like someone saying lets get birss because he can replace harvey.

the chances are whoever we get will still be beaten by Cox.

[saintsRrising]

not a big fan of trading for washed up duds like m clarke

The Saints did not trade for M Clarke,,,





He was picked up in the PSD for nothing as Rl knew our ruck stocks were woeful......as a handy back up & with gardi not getting fit that proved to be prident.....so 10 games from a cheap PSD pick for a back up player was not a bad retiurn.

Kosi has said that he has lerant alot of M Clarke in terms of ruckwork.....and Kosi did look more capable in the ruck in 2007.....and so hopefully that will be the extra long term benefit of having had Clarke at the saints.

[saintsRrising]

Totally agree with rodgerfox.


We have lost two games in the past 4 years where having an elite ruckman may have influenced the result.

Neither of those matches was a GF, so you can't say it has cost us a premiership.

.

Not sure how you work that out.....


1/ I think you are only looking at where a ruckman really crucified us.....rather than looking at how a good to elite ruckman could have provided some extra advantage in virtually every game.

Some games we would have lost..but in some it would have made the difference in assisting our mids..as well as hampering the opposition mids.

An extra win here and there....anad bit better % (even when you lose) all add up toa better ladder position and perhaps afew more hime finals etc...

I will also give you a specific instance....Knoble who won lots of taps for us....but who could not direct the ball well....closing moments of the game...Knoble rucks deep in the forward line and taps straight to Wanganeen who is wide and by himself....and Wanganeen who had been quiet kicks the goal. We just lose. The next week PA play a Lions team crippled with injury and win their first flag....it could have been us.

One poor tap out made a difference that game.

Now that does not inlude Knobles POOR work around the ground for nil possessions.

Add Spider..and you get quality taps and possessions around the ground that hurt the opposition added to his quality DIRECTED tap work.



2/ If GT had been able to retain Spida & get him to play as he can....then GT may well have won a Premiership...eith that year...or when the Swans eliminated us....though the PA year was the biggest chance. But GT did not and we did not.


PS....the discussion by some posters seems to forget about Lade and his quality ruckwork. He makesa HUGe difference to Pa...with BOTH his ruckwork as well as his around the ground work. also his big body does wonders for his smalls....no pssessions in bodywork for Ladedirectly, but yes there is for his team.

[Dan Warna]

spider wanted big money 800k plus big money something st kilda wasn't willing to pay but hawthorn was.

IF we retained spider we would have lost other quality players.

once hawthorn refused to accede to his financial demands he walked again.

and we know sydney has 'interesting' salary cap rules.

IF we were in teh finals in 04 or 05 with spider it would have been without at least one or maybe two players of quality that got contributed to getting us there.

[bigcarl]

not a big fan of trading for washed up duds like m clarke

The Saints did not trade for M Clarke,,,

perhaps i should rephrase that. I'm not a big fan of hiring washed-up duds like m. clarke. I wouldn't be looking at anyone over 24-25. their best football should be in front of them, not behind them.

[ausfatcat]

he also wanted out because he wanted to play in a premiership which he got real close to at hawthorn.....

[Dan Warna]

he also wanted out because he wanted to play in a premiership which he got real close to at hawthorn.....

hawthorn have staged a remarkable comeback in the abscense of spoida.

i really will be sick if spoida ends up with a premiership medal.

in your eye folks who believe in karma if he does.

[ausfatcat]

same he's a mercenary and down right disstable to any club he is at. He's going ok at sydney this year but net year he will cause trouble there.

[saintsRrising]

All clubs have a salary cap Dan.....and $$$ were not the main reason spida left.

The main reason was his relationship, or lack of it with GT.


Ask yourself about which players were "troubled souls" at the Saints under GT and how many of them could GT actually work with????

GTrain is about the only one.....and interestlingly enough EVERYONE describes GTrain as fabulous bloke and very easy to get on with.

Every club has "troubled souls". All clubs wish that they did not.....but succesful clubs harness much of the talent...admittedly not without drama. They do this because they know that good players are very hard to find...and so to get that extra edge you have to get the best out of them.

I note for example that Cats reformed Johnson....


You can cast aside rough diamonds...or you can put the effort in to cut around their flaws and polish them up.

[saintsRrising]

hawthorn have staged a remarkable comeback in the abscense of spoida.

i.

How about more that:
1/That their young players have been DEVELOPED and are coming of age
2/ that when they have traded...that they have done so to advantage...rather than toa net disadvantage.
3/that they have mined the rookie system very well.


Hawthorns success is due to smart recruitment and player development....and not beacuse Spiad swapped clubs.

[Dan Warna]

hawthorn have staged a remarkable comeback in the abscense of spoida.

i.

How about more that:
1/That their young players have been DEVELOPED and are coming of age
2/ that when they have traded...that they have done so to advantage...rather than toa net disadvantage.
3/that they have mined the rookie system very well.


Hawthorns success is due to smart recruitment and player development....and not beacuse Spiad swapped clubs.

They have had a few dud trades as well. and their draft picks have come from bottoming out. and they had a relatively injury free season.

roughead, lewis, lade, hodge, Croad, Campbell, franklin among their early draft picks and trades for early draft picks.

mitchell was a smokey round 2 pick

danny jacobs was a trade that doesn't seem to have worked out (pick 4 right?)

they waited what 3 seasons for joel smith to get over an injury? saints fans can't wait 12 minutes for an injured player without calling for them to be delisted.

Guerra was picked up and turned around.

also they have spent time with players in the magoos, guys like sewell have spent maybe 50 plus games in the reserves, if any player at st kilda is in springvale casey for more than 10 games you can hear they howls that they aren't good enough delist them

rookie system? maybe our board should have allowed funding for rookies prior to 07

as for being good, I dont think Hawkthorn are that much, they did well, but really we could have beaten them twice without much sweat.

"adapting' to our new game plan cost us first time we met them we had their measure and frankly I reckon we were outcoached in the second half.

and we accounted for them in our second meeting.

also the era spider was there coincided with a number of off field incidents and subsequent incidents that we can't discuss on the forum.

[rodgerfox]

1/ I think you are only looking at where a ruckman really crucified us.....rather than looking at how a good to elite ruckman could have provided some extra advantage in virtually every game.

How many elite ruckman are there in the game?

Infact, how many elite ruckmen have their been in the history of the game?


An elite player in any position will provide extra advantage in a game.

How many premiership ruckmen have been elite?

Ball and Jolly? No way.
Cox? Yes.
Keating, Charman and MacDonald? Not even close.
Brogan? No.
Lade? Close.
John Barnes and Alessio? Pfft.
Capuano and McKernan? McKernan at the time, yes.

Of course you'd love to have an elite ruckman - the same as every club wants an elite forward, FB or on-baller, but the way people talk is that we've erred in the fact that we don't have one.

As usual SR, you're full of it.

You've made so many grand calls over the last year and this pre-season, and now that they're all falling to pieces and being revealed as garbage - you're clutching.

I don't think you even know what you're arguing about anymore.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

hawthorn have staged a remarkable comeback in the abscense of spoida.

i.

How about more that:
1/That their young players have been DEVELOPED and are coming of age
2/ that when they have traded...that they have done so to advantage...rather than toa net disadvantage.
3/that they have mined the rookie system very well.


Hawthorns success is due to smart recruitment and player development....and not beacuse Spiad swapped clubs.

Hawthorn has rebuilt through youth. The timing of Spider leaving is co-incidental. It's not especially due to smarts or development, it's due to perseverance, working to a plan, and accepting the pain it takes to get there... and having the guts a few years ago to decide it's what was necessary. They've brought trough some very good players, they've also had their share of busts.