Fill in the holes

[To the top]

The absolute priority is the training regime to ensure we have our best players consistently on the park and that they are in pretty reasonable form.

Not negotiable.

Having only 23/24 players to pick from at certain stages of the season means season gone.

We start with :-

Gilbert xxxxxx L. Fisher
S. Fisher Maguire Gram
Hayes Goddard Riewoldt
X. Clarke Koschitzke xxxxxxx
Montagna xxxxxxx xxxxxxxx
Gardiner Dal Santo Ball
R. Clarke xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxxx

I have left out our veterans, recognising that some may play on and that Harvey (as a bonus, not as a core), Hudgden and Gehrig would be in the side if available.

We need the likes of Allen and Armitage (because he was a top 10 draft pick) to come on -and anyone else on the list!

One off the interchange needs to be a back up ruckman - and I am not referring to Blake, Rix or M. Clarke (if he continues), because that goes back to a fundamental problem we had this year.

We need someone who has a presence around the ground and can handle the back up ruck duties, behind Gardiner who is the great white hope.

Just a random thought is that Fiora could be the goal kicking half forward we yearn, he has a grab but needs to work on the defensive side and on his goal kicking - and to fire away from outside 50. 5 kicks = 5 goals sort of stuff.

Casey making the finals is a bonus, because we can assess abilities from their continuing involvement.

Hopefully they go all the way and a raft of players put their hands up for 2008 and onwards.

I do not expect wholesale sackings from the list, but some of our mids who have been around for a couple of years without making much of a mark may be disappointed.

They will be reviewed and assessed.

But they have to be replaced from the draft therefore the depth of the draft comes into play.

I would also be trawling the WAFL and the SANFL - recognising the success Sam Fisher has been as a mature age selection from West Adelaide.

These competitions give the WA and SA sides an advantage, because they rookie list from those comps and then promote. And they have got hold of some pretty handy players in that way.

In terms of the talls, with the exception of full back (where Maguire should never play so we have a veteran in Max then no-one), we have the requisite numbers, recognising that if the likes of M. Clarke and Rix are not persevered with we need to replace like with like (except that they can actually contribute to the passage of play and make a nuisance of themselves because they can contribute to the passage of play).

So, who fills the holes?

[SaintWodonga]

Agree with Armo & Allen. Not sure, who to fill, I think our bottom 6 is letting us down.

We must work on our kicking for goal over the off season & we need a mid sized goal kicker to bob up.

[To the top]

Limited response?

Perhaps we could add the players from other clubs who would enhance our core?

The subject of the exercise is to show that our core is at the least adequate but the we need to address the calibre of our "bottom 6" versus the bottom six of the sides still in contention.

[Sam23]

Roo CHF.

Kosi FF.


I don't think Riewoldt is nearly as damaging enough on the wing as he is up forward.

[BallBanger]

L.Fisher is not an auto selection....slow and turns it over exactly what we don't need....
I like the idea of G and Milne not there to lose games need to develop others who have a go and hold the ball in.

Our drafting has to be for quickish midfield/forward types as if we don't have these were shot.....ruckman are nice to have but can improvise more than runners....sick of wasting picks on dud ruckman, if we had used all these choices for running players our list would be more developed.

[Oh When the Saints]

I reckon it is more like:

B: L. Fisher, M. Hudghton, S. Gilbert
HB: S. Fisher, M. Maguire, J. Gram
C: B. Goddard, N. Dal Santo, L. Montagna
HF: X. Clarke, N. Riewoldt, [marking flanker]
F: [resting mid], J. Koschitzke, S. Milne
Foll: [ruck], L. Ball, S. Baker
I/C: A. Fiora, R. Clarke, [2nd ruck], [midfielder]

For next year ...

Harvs can take the HF spot, and hopefully Gardiner as the ruckman.

Plainly we need two more midfielders ... one to rest in the forwardline and another one to rotate off the bench.

Attard, Armitage, Howard, Geary and Birss are vying for these two spots as I see it.

[To the top]

I basically subscribe to the theory that if you are relying on players you are to draft you are behind the eight ball immediately.

There are exceptions, but you do not base your foward projections on the exceptional.

Leigh Fisher is adjusting to a mid-field/bench rotation - an adjustment from a defender playing 100% of game time.

Hopefully this exposure will improve him as a defender.

If he gets caught for pace, R. Clarke comes to a half-back flank and Gram picks up the pace.

I would see R. Clarke as adding flexibility to the structure - and he can play.

[Otiman]

You cannot enhance your core successfully by trading with other clubs. You can improve your fringe and depth, but any players capable of becoming core members (1st tier midfielders + key forwards/backs) you won't get for any less than a 1st round pick.

[bigred]

How bad do we need Gardiner to get through the next preseason and play the next two years minimum.

Kosi-Riewoldt Forward line is awesome, but without Gardi we are farked...

Unless we promote Van Rheenan (spell) etc, but he is years away...

[Carl Mynott]

I reckon it is more like:

B: L. Fisher, M. Hudghton, S. Gilbert
HB: S. Fisher, M. Maguire, J. Gram
C: B. Goddard, N. Dal Santo, L. Montagna
HF: X. Clarke, N. Riewoldt, [marking flanker]
F: [resting mid], J. Koschitzke, S. Milne
Foll: [ruck], L. Ball, S. Baker
I/C: A. Fiora, R. Clarke, [2nd ruck], [midfielder]

Amongst other things this team is short a Key defender.......

[mad saint guy]

The following players are guaranteed their spot in 2008

B: S.Fisher, Hudghton, Goddard
HB: Gram, Maguire, Gilbert
C: Montagna, Hayes, ???
HF: ???, Riewoldt, X.Clarke
F: Milne, Koschitzke, ???

Foll: ???, Ball, Dal Santo
Int: Baker, Fiora, ???, ???

If I were coach I would try to get this team on the field in round 1

B: S.Fisher, Hudghton, R.Clarke
HB: Gram, Maguire, Gilbert
C: Harvey, Hayes, Montagna
HF: Goddard, Riewoldt, X.Clarke
F: Brooks, Koschitzke, Milne

Foll: Gardiner, Ball, Dal Santo
Int: Birss, Blake, Fiora, L.Fisher

Emg: Garrubba, Geary, Armitage

EDIT: Forgot BJ

[plugger66]

The following players are guaranteed their spot in 2008

B: S.Fisher, Hudghton, Goddard
HB: Gram, Maguire, Gilbert
C: Montagna, Hayes, ???
HF: ???, Riewoldt, X.Clarke
F: Milne, Koschitzke, ???

Foll: ???, Ball, Dal Santo
Int: Baker, Fiora, ???, ???

If I were coach I would try to get this team on the field in round 1

B: S.Fisher, Hudghton, L.Fisher
HB: Gram, Maguire, Gilbert
C: Geary, Hayes, Montagna
HF: Harvey, Riewoldt, X.Clarke
F: Brooks, Koschitzke, Milne

Foll: Gardiner, Ball, Dal Santo
Int: Birss, Blake, R.Clarke, Fiora

Emg: Garrubba, Watts, Armitage

Brooks, Garubba and Geary? Please dont get sucked in by VFL form. It is a class or 2 down from AFL.

[Carl Mynott]

If I were coach I would try to get this team on the field in round 1

B: S.Fisher, Hudghton, L.Fisher
HB: Gram, Maguire, Gilbert
C: Geary, Hayes, Montagna
HF: Harvey, Riewoldt, X.Clarke
F: Brooks, Koschitzke, Milne

Foll: Gardiner, Ball, Dal Santo
Int: Birss, Blake, R.Clarke, Fiora

Emg: Garrubba, Watts, Armitage

Dont worry about finals,lets play this team and aim for something like 9th spot.........

In the words of an absent poster...

FAIR DINKUM

[To the top]

So Plugger66, what form do we get seduced by?

Form from the Under 18 TAC comp, or the Under 17's or Under19's in the SANFL?

If form in under age competitions is the form we should take notice of, what has happened to Armitage taken at 9 and said mature enough in body for the AFL in 2007 - just for starters?

The VFL is where all players on AFL lists compete if they are not in the league side, and where they press for promotion from.

So you can not dismiss VFL form.

A gap to AFL level - Yes.

But if players playing well at VFL level are not of the quality to perform at AFL level, well, what is the game all about?

We might as well pack up now and go home.

Plus there is such a thing as player development, and we are not privy to what the coach instructions are in respect to any particular player.

Some on here cut off their noses despite their faces.

I would love to play Kosi or Roo at full forward next year - they would be sensational but St Kilda can not afford to play either of them in that position.

Wish we could, but we can't.

[plugger66]

So Plugger66, what form do we get seduced by?

Form from the Under 18 TAC comp, or the Under 17's or Under19's in the SANFL?

If form in under age competitions is the form we should take notice of, what has happened to Armitage taken at 9 and said mature enough in body for the AFL in 2007 - just for starters?

The VFL is where all players on AFL lists compete if they are not in the league side, and where they press for promotion from.

So you can not dismiss VFL form.

A gap to AFL level - Yes.

But if players playing well at VFL level are not of the quality to perform at AFL level, well, what is the game all about?

We might as well pack up now and go home.

Plus there is such a thing as player development, and we are not privy to what the coach instructions are in respect to any particular player.

Some on here cut off their noses despite their faces.

I would love to play Kosi or Roo at full forward next year - they would be sensational but St Kilda can not afford to play either of them in that position.

Wish we could, but we can't.

I was really saying that a6 year player who has 8 games to his credit is not good enough and Garrubba got delisted by the swans because he isnt good enough. Geary well who knows just dont get sucked into VFL form.

[To the top]

Plugger66, you seem to look at the list by raising the name of one particular player over and over (6 games in 8 years over and over and over - and that ain't really the criteria anyway!).

What we do know in terms of who is on our list is that we have 3 retirements, losing a full forward (who comments that he has become a one position player and that that makes it very difficult in today's game), a ruckman and a mid-fielder.

We have some other players who are closer to the end of their careers, namely Harvey, Voss and Hudgden.

Plus there is the situation with Hamill.

So gaps open up or are on the cusp of opening up.

For someone to play full forward and to also bring another dimension to the side. Possibly there will be rotations thru full forward but, given our list, the options are Kosi, Roo, Watts and Brooks. Kosi and Roo are too valuable except for brief rotations from up the ground positions - as we saw with Kosi today.

As far as ruckmen go, well Blake got absolutely smashed today and we got smashed more so out of the centre with Richmond feeding back, around and breaking forward with ease and with immunity.

So Blake is not a ruckman (at 189 cm). Rix is Rix. Gives it his all but does not have the skills to bring any impact at AFL level. It is a tribute to his commitment that he has played so many games.

So who does that leave as ruckmen? Gardiner and Brooks. Now Brooks is not the "real deal" as a No 1 ruckman because, quite frankly, at 198 cm he is just that bit too short to lead your rucks against the opposition premier ruckmen, but he can play forward and rotate into the ruck as support against the second stringers.

Without the automatic selection of Gehrig, the game changes.

We look for someone parked at full forward who can be part of the ruck/full forward/bench rotation.

No doubt we look far more dangerous with 3 talls up forward - as today showed with Gehrig, Kosi and Roo winning us a game we were ordinary in by kicking goals.

But Gehrig is no longer there.

Watts would be a "one position" player as Gehrig has referred.

So you are looking (and hoping) that Gardiner stands up to the No 1 rucking rigours, and when he is spelled one of Brooks or Kosi spells him still leaving 2 talls standing in the forward line - and possibly Gardiner periodically resting forward.

What are the other options from our list?

And are we going to draft a ready made 200 plus centimetre player to lead our rucks in 2008?

As I have said before, lift your gaze from your prejudices and perceptions and actually look at what we have available to utilise.

It ain't that flash, so don't cut off your nose despite your face including by denigrating VFL form.

It may be that Brooks is delisted - but if you are so hot and strong on that line (which you are by obsession), please continue the rationale in regards options - and especially now that Gehrig and M. Clarke are gone.

Who are our options?

And what are our options?

And then you can look at full back.

And then you can look at the mid-field.

[Carl Mynott]

Plugger66, you seem to look at the list by raising the name of one particular player over and over (6 games in 8 years over and over and over - and that ain't really the criteria anyway!).

What we do know in terms of who is on our list is that we have 3 retirements, losing a full forward (who comments that he has become a one position player and that that makes it very difficult in today's game), a ruckman and a mid-fielder.

We have some other players who are closer to the end of their careers, namely Harvey, Voss and Hudgden.

Plus there is the situation with Hamill.

So gaps open up or are on the cusp of opening up.

For someone to play full forward and to also bring another dimension to the side. Possibly there will be rotations thru full forward but, given our list, the options are Kosi, Roo, Watts and Brooks. Kosi and Roo are too valuable except for brief rotations from up the ground positions - as we saw with Kosi today.

As far as ruckmen go, well Blake got absolutely smashed today and we got smashed more so out of the centre with Richmond feeding back, around and breaking forward with ease and with immunity.

So Blake is not a ruckman (at 189 cm). Rix is Rix. Gives it his all but does not have the skills to bring any impact at AFL level. It is a tribute to his commitment that he has played so many games.

So who does that leave as ruckmen? Gardiner and Brooks. Now Brooks is not the "real deal" as a No 1 ruckman because, quite frankly, at 198 cm he is just that bit too short to lead your rucks against the opposition premier ruckmen, but he can play forward and rotate into the ruck as support against the second stringers.

Without the automatic selection of Gehrig, the game changes.

We look for someone parked at full forward who can be part of the ruck/full forward/bench rotation.

No doubt we look far more dangerous with 3 talls up forward - as today showed with Gehrig, Kosi and Roo winning us a game we were ordinary in by kicking goals.

But Gehrig is no longer there.

Watts would be a "one position" player as Gehrig has referred.

So you are looking (and hoping) that Gardiner stands up to the No 1 rucking rigours, and when he is spelled one of Brooks or Kosi spells him still leaving 2 talls standing in the forward line - and possibly Gardiner periodically resting forward.

What are the other options from our list?

And are we going to draft a ready made 200 plus centimetre player to lead our rucks in 2008?

As I have said before, lift your gaze from your prejudices and perceptions and actually look at what we have available to utilise.

It ain't that flash, so don't cut off your nose despite your face including by denigrating VFL form.

It may be that Brooks is delisted - but if you are so hot and strong on that line (which you are by obsession), please continue the rationale in regards options - and especially now that Gehrig and M. Clarke are gone.

Who are our options?

And what are our options?

And then you can look at full back.

And then you can look at the mid-field.

A very good post that is pretty well on the money and almost bereft of ego

[mad saint guy]

Brooks, Garubba and Geary? Please dont get sucked in by VFL form. It is a class or 2 down from AFL.

I know that, but these guys display the skills required at AFL level. Brooks is a skilled, athletic, strong-marking forward/ruck. Garrubba is a ball-winning, pacey, tough flanker with neat skills. Geary is a very classy wingman who has good pace, good skills, racks up plenty of the footy and is very creative going forward.

Matthew Kruezer has done nothing at AFL level. I suppose he won't get drafted then. And the team we go in with in round one will have to play for the entire season, because the players in the reserves obviously aren't up to it.

[plugger66]

Brooks, Garubba and Geary? Please dont get sucked in by VFL form. It is a class or 2 down from AFL.

I know that, but these guys display the skills required at AFL level. Brooks is a skilled, athletic, strong-marking forward/ruck. Garrubba is a ball-winning, pacey, tough flanker with neat skills. Geary is a very classy wingman who has good pace, good skills, racks up plenty of the footy and is very creative going forward.

Matthew Kruezer has done nothing at AFL level. I suppose he won't get drafted then. And the team we go in with in round one will have to play for the entire season, because the players in the reserves obviously aren't up to it.

The age of players.

[To the top]

Plugger66, I do not mean to be seen as attacking everything you say, because this is a conversation with the interests of St Kilda FC being a consistent power house in the AFL, and winning a share of premierships - something that has never happended in the past.

But, because of our mid-field limitations, we are looking for a 35 year old to continue on in 2008.

And, again because of an absence of alternatives, we are looking for a 30 year old to continue on as our full back.

No criticism, because every club is in the same boat.

So why introduce age?

At what age did Thommo start his VFL/AFL career?

And Rix?

Next response?

I repeat, I (as an interested by-stander) do not expect many changes to our list apart from those departing and a review of out mid-field stocks.

And I would be grabbing someone from the NRL to teach our players how to make a tackle which actually impedes and actually puts pressure on the opposition.

Plus, Richmond, the bottom side, gave us a lesson in blocking and running to support, which is why our mids need to be reviewed.

We relied on individual efforts.