List this, list that....

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Interesting thread. I'm very interested to see others share my opinion that footspeed is overrated. Interesting that SRR used Mark Williams as an example, as Williams has very successfully used footspeed to surround his quality players and get most use out of his youth as quickly as possible. I was a Williams doubter during the choke years - but I've got to admit, Williams has fast tracked that team very successfully, and is IMO a fantastic coach (as much as he's got a knack for bugging me with his public statements, gotta admire the resutls). Port play an exciting brand and have had a very good year.

However, St. DAC poits out, the ball moves much faster when you kick it - no matter who you are. Not to disregard footspeed as useful - X for example looks dangerous as he accelerates away from opponents... you just wonder what he'll do next. Goddard is far more damaging after 4 or 5 pedestrian steps banging the ball 50 metres to a target. Grammy is exciting streaming out of the backline, but when the game slows down, his short kicking gets found out.

Pace is great for chasing, for running away, and for one on one battles. For mine, the Saints footspeed deficiencies are blown out of proportion in comparison to the fact that if you kick behinds at Telstra Dome, you'll get found out. The Saints have kicked 253.254 this year, which speaks to me of not taking opportunities (to massively overplay the numbers, the Saints have had 507 scoring shots to 504, but scored at 49% compared to 53%). More importantly, there are a number of close games in which better kicking would have made a big difference, even disregarding the extra pressure it would have put on opponents, and it's actually just a final demonstration of what's true all over the field.

If I were to add an attribute to St. Kilda, it would be more Goddard kicking, followed by more Luke Ball in and under work to win us contested ball. I wish every player the Saints had was full of blinding pace, but don't think it's been the major flaw in 2007.

[joffaboy]

Interesting thread. I'm very interested to see others share my opinion that footspeed is overrated.

I agree that footspeed, on its own, is overrated.

What good would it be to have Asafa Powell on a wing if he couldn't get the pill or dispose of it effectively, or run down a player and tackle him.

cj has footspeed and looked Ok early on in the season, but needs to work on his footskills.

I know it is easier said than done to get someone quick who also has good skills. But when we have a player that is pedestrian and who turns it over, it is disasterous.

We are pedestrian in pace and sloppy in foot skills and that combo is deadly to aspirations.

[meher baba]

BAM! (shhhh)

Absolutely fabulous post. You have succinctly expressed in about three paragraphs some of the key things I was trying to say in my mythbusting thread of a couple of weeks ago.

Probably my only difference with you is in relation to how much we miss Goddard: he is a terrific player, but - as we have shown in some games - our list is even good enough to do without him.

What we aren't good enough to do without is (1) kicking accuracy (and your statistic on goals: behinds at the windless TD - which I have not seen before - is absolutely damning) and (2) somebody to get the ball in tight and deliver it to our running midfielders. A fully fit Ball would probably be close to the best in the business at this (although I think Foley of Richmond might turn out to be the best in history if he keeps playing like he has in recent weeks).

That said, your analysis of Port raises an interesting point: speed helps to lift a team with a relatively young list built around a few experienced stars, but becomes less critical as players develop their disposal skills and confidence. And indeed, as we have perhaps seen with the Bulldogs this season, there is a kind of glass ceiling which purely speed-based teams can't break through, and which means that teams that win premierships will always have a good balance of runners and crucial KPPs.

[spert]

Our list has deficiencies, though in 2004 we got on a run and gained confidence, but the Prelim against Port showed our deficencies which I think are still there. We lack a consistant strong crumbing forward or two, another strong running midfielder and another good big bodied backman and ruckman who can mark around the ground. Although this year we are putting up a good show considering injuries and inconsistant form from some players, I'm sure RL need this year to change things around and get away from the GT mindset. We need some smart recruiting.

[saintsRrising]

If I were to add an attribute to St. Kilda, it would be more Goddard kicking, followed by more Luke Ball in and under work to win us contested ball. I wish every player the Saints had was full of blinding pace, but don't think it's been the major flaw in 2007.

Indeed that is what list management and balance is ALL about....getting the right mix.....of player types and characteritics...


We don't need every player to have blinding pace....we just need another player or two to have some. And indeed just pace in iteself will not and cannot win games.

We don't need every player to have superb footshkills....but as seen in the WC game just past.....if our average team disposal skills were just that bit better we may have won.


AFL is now very VERY competive...and there are many factors you can work on to give you an edge...fitness, skills, pace, run etc etc...

You need to look at all of them.


One factor however is list management.

Take the Cats...they long recognised that they needed more key forwards.....Mooney and Ottens are bringing home the bacon for them now.

They looked at their midfield.....and new they needed a bit more and have added some extra pace....and importantly told Gazza that he needed to step up to bea midfielder...

In the forward line they knew they needed another path to goal......and so with the underperforming Johnson they took action to reform him rather than show him the door.

The Cats yes got their players fit...but have also manged their list well.



The Eagles....well they identify and develop talent better than anyone.


PA...quickly restructured their list.....

[saintsRrising]

List management is not just getting new players.

It is very much making the most of what you have as well.

For us to step up.....both hopefully in THIS years finals if we make it...as well as next year and the year after that.....we need improvement and development in all our players...

The Weagles for eaxmple DEVELOPED their current FF, FB...and back up mids such as Priddis. It is not enough to drafta player....he must be DEVELOPED to maximise his potential.



For some it will be in increased fitness..

For some it will bein footskills ie Gilbert

For some it will be in being more disciplined..

For some it will be in improved defensive skills such as spoling. ie Gram (unless of course he moves to the midfield!!)

For some the confidence to believe in themselves...ie Fiora & say Brooks (who it may be too late for)


For some it wil be increased ruck skills. ie Kosi with his tapwork and body positioning.


For some it is overcoming injury problems. ie Ball, Gardi and Hamill



Cumulative player improvement will lead to increased team success.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

List management is not just getting new players.

It is very much making the most of what you have as well.

For us to step up.....both hopefully in THIS years finals if we make it...as well as next year and the year after that.....we need improvement and development in all our players...

The Weagles for eaxmple DEVELOPED their current FF, FB...and back up mids such as Priddis. It is not enough to drafta player....he must be DEVELOPED to maximise his potential.

....

I agree with the above - but think it may be a tough sell to a lot of fans who are looking for the payoff now of the potential shown in '04 and '05.

Taking your Eagles example, how long have the Eagles been criticised for having no Key Forward? Lynch was a monster on Friday, IIRC 3 of his goals were outside 50, and you'd normally say a FB has done his job if he keeps a FF's touches out that far... Lynch played his first game for West Coast in 2002, didn't play in 2003, and only really started making his presence felt with any consistency in 2006.

Patience.

Similarly, Darren Glass only put most of his doubters away with his stellar '06 season (probably not the case out west, but even this year, a lot of people don't want to credit him), I think we'd all agree that he was awesome on the close... not just getting into spoil, but passing Gehrig and marking ball's that off the boot looked good.

Again, patience.

The guys on the Saints list that compare are Fergus Watts, Barry Brooks, Matt Ferguson, James Gwilt... and patience doesn't seem to be the will of the majority (and for the record, having seen Roger Fox's thread, that's my inference only) on these players - though I for one hope it's not the method taken by the selection comittee - no point to turning over 8 or 9 players in a single off season.

[saintsRrising]

- no point to turning over 8 or 9 players in a single off season.

Not from the main list no..

But inclusive of the rookie list then perhaps.

It will depend on how many of the rookies are decided are worth developing. We can only keep 3 on as rookies...the other 3 must be promoted or delisted.

[Dan Warna]

which is why ppl writing of some of our young talls are daft, it takes patience to develop guys like watts.

also Brooks if he is doing so well in the seconds should have got a shot at the seniors long before now.

haven't seen any commentary suggesting rix or clarke had any form at casey, but continually see reports that brooks is doing very well in the ruck.

[plugger66]

which is why ppl writing of some of our young talls are daft, it takes patience to develop guys like watts.

also Brooks if he is doing so well in the seconds should have got a shot at the seniors long before now.

haven't seen any commentary suggesting rix or clarke had any form at casey, but continually see reports that brooks is doing very well in the ruck.

Even though I have been shot down Brooks doesnt get a go in the ruck in the seniors is because heis not ruckman but a forward who rucks poorly. Rix and Clarke are ruckman.

[Dan Warna]

well going by what folks have said who have been to the casey games, the commentary is he is doing very well in the ruck.

[plugger66]

well going by what folks have said who have been to the casey games, the commentary is he is doing very well in the ruck.

As I have said before I have know seen 7 Casy games and I would say he has rucked for 30@ of the time. I know other say more but in the 7 I have seen that is what he has done. He is aa ordinary ruckman at VFL level so how would he go at AFL level. he will be delisted at the end if the year IMO.

[Iratedebate]

As I have said before I have know seen 7 Casy games and I would say he has rucked for 30@ of the time. I know other say more but in the 7 I have seen that is what he has done. He is aa ordinary ruckman at VFL level so how would he go at AFL level. he will be delisted at the end if the year IMO

Exactly. If he is ordinary in the ruck at VFL level then he will be disastrous at AFL level. Brooks should be delisted, he has been in the system for 6 seasons and has shown us NOTHING. Some on here are excited when he occasionally gets named 6th or 7th in Caseys best. Sorry, but that is not good enough.

[woooosaints]

i didnt read any of the crap all of you posted before but the one thing i hate is the constant threads of recruiting ruckman.

Gardiner and Kosi = spider jolly ruck duo will be awesome to see next year
Rix and van rheenan as back up if anything goes wrong

i think our ruck stocks are fine a few mids we have kpps in waiting so all we really need is a few mids dont we