Loris's quote on WCE blake strategy

[Dan Warna]

Loriswa said
Some of the anti-Blake people in this thread, need to go back an watch the tape of last night's game. First half Cousin's hardly got a touch because Blake wore him like a glove - he did a credible job

Second half..... obviously IMHO...as a result of of John Worsfold's superior coaching nouse. The word was obviously out to knock the tag off Cousins.

As I say watch the replay carefully.... see how many Eagles players put Blake down during the third quarter he was ran through continually, collected & blocked( Shocked Shocked Shocked ) off Cousins so often and physically it took it's toll on him.

Smart coaching I say by Worsfold....dumb by our coach by leaving Blake on Cousins so long when he had the stuffing knocked off him.

RL appears a little inflexible at times. Didn't appear to have a "B" plan for Blake when Cousins started to run riot. I think it would have been better to rest Blake for some time to get his body back in order. Then throw him into the ruck in that final quarter.... a much better option than Clarke when the effort was needed.

Hi loris

I've made mention that was a strategy we used at ball ups in the 03 and 04 when the AFL and umpires came down hard on us for illegal shephards after an 'expose' in the hun.

if anyone can remember dal or frankie or someone who run past the pack and powell or baker would step in front of them with a shoulder allowing the runner to break free.

we started getting penalised heavily with frees for this.

I also noticed that it started coming back late last year and this year with no comments.

when it was raised on the radio, quite possibly from discussion generated on this board, it was declared to be perfectly legal and always legal...

Other teams seem capable of changing their strategies mid game, but we do not, if we have a plan we stick to it regardless, as we saw when the hawks changed their flood pattern when we played them at the start of the season in the snooze fest.

I am sure if we start using this strategy it will mysteriously be illegal shepherding again.

I didn't notice it specifically loris, but given your experience and hte fact others have been using that strat it seems perfectly plausable and dissapointing we didn't adapt to it.[/i]

[meher baba]

RL appears a little inflexible at times.

Truer words were never written.

[Oh When the Saints]

RL appears a little inflexible at times.

Truer words were never written.

What examples do you have to prove he is any more or less flexible than any other coach in the AFL?

Evidence please ...

[evertonfc]

Just a thought - surely Leigh Fisher would have been a far more suitable tagging option for BC?

And there's a massive, gaping hole in Loris's analysis.

What she omitts is that several times, when BC won the clearance, Blake was standing way off BC - often on the other side of the bounce, leaving BC by himself. That's not the result of blocking or anything else - he litterally refused to stand next to him and do what Cousins hates, which is body on body contact,

How can that be allowed to happen for nearly three quarters?

[saintsRrising]

Inflexible????

Interesting...

Is this the same RL who for example has:

*Played Luke Ball as a tagger and forward in an attempt to maximise what he can get out of his injury restricted groin?

*Played Blake not only to tag talls like Goodes.....but also on genuine mids in Crawford and Cousins.......as well as in the ruck when he had suitable oppoents?

*Played L Fisher in the midfield as a run with tagger

*Played in the pre-season and main season Fiora in a variety of roles before finding his current niche which includes some time as an inside mid (this the player that many said was only an outside soft player)?

*Brought the rookie Attard in at the start of the year in front of other players?

*Started the year by having GTrain do a lot of running.....but has him stay more forward of late...

*Plucked Gwilt out to play full back when we were lacking tall options?

[evertonfc]

I think the point on RL is that he's not quick to react when things are going wrong.

It was clear to me at the start of the game that Wirrpunda would outsmart Raph Clarke too much; RL didn't realise than until into the third term.

It was also clear Cousins had shaken Blake, but RL persisted, even when Blake refused to stand next to him at centre bounces.

He kept Gehrig anchored, instead of moving him to a pocket, thus also keeping Glass out of the play.

I don't think his structure is too bad, I like the largely defensive feel, but he can't seem to adapt according to what we need and what happens during the game.

A prime example of that would be last night, in refusing to give Cousins an appropriate tag, and against Sydney, when chasing a win - he threw another man into defence and ramped up the zone, instead of rolling the dice, playing man on man, and going for the win.

[Dan Warna]

i raised the issue when clarkeson adapted his teams flooding game midway through the game, but just simply blocking off st kilda's cheap kick behind play which cut sam fisher out of the game after half time for effectiveness.

yet st kilda persisted with the same strategy till the end.

ohter games we have adapted and changed, but that was a clear example where clarkeson changed strats effectively and we did not.

[Teflon]

Lorsi analysis is dribble and shows all the signs of someone who watched the game on TV.......you just dont see enough Loris Im afraid...

2nd half Blake simply didnt - for ALL his vaunted engine - have capacity to go with Cousins...he was stuffed and it showed when he started to allow Cousins 5/10 meters of space (which you see AT the ground and not on the screen..). Cousins burst speed did the rest......Blake in dust.

As for Meherbabbaleslots usual Lyon GENERIC COMMENTS -why make stupid sweeping generalisations that I and several others on thsi thread alone point out CAN NOT be backed up? dumb dumb dumb......

Lyon...inflexible....pfft,...
Dan...Lyon no plan B....pfftt...

What about St Kilda - not having developed enough running skilled mods over the past 5/6 yrs???

[Oh When the Saints]

The reality is that who else could have played on Cousins?

No one at St Kilda is fit enough to keep up with him.


That is the sad reality.


Blake is our fittest player, and he was stuffed.

[Teflon]

The reality is that who else could have played on Cousins?

No one at St Kilda is fit enough to keep up with him.


That is the sad reality.


Blake is our fittest player, and he was stuffed.

Blake is fit...but he also didnt have the burst speed off the mark to stay with Cousins...or give him 5 meters head start...

Cousins MUST live in the gym...

[firthy]

on you loriswa great to watch your analyis of the game don't expect to many to agree with you , we had things going very nicely but the normal St Kilda wankers didn't like that - the grass must be greener on the other side of the fence - to hang in with a coach to for ten years and pick up a flag aint what they are about they want it instantly and we all klnow it aint gonna happen but the tool4eva and the rod butters of this world are just keen to push their personal egos they don't actually care about our beloved club

[Dan Warna]

i dont think loris was on about GT or RL just the strategy used to knock off blake the tag in defence of blake and it was a fair call.

I've seen this strat used heaps of times before and until umpired out, we used it a while ago.

[meher baba]

Sigh......Teflon and others. A man is allowed to have an opinion FFS!!

RL suffers from inflexibility, as did GT. IMO, neither of them are particularly talented coaches (although RL clearly still has time to develop into something better).

You watch the match day tactics of a Sheedy or a Matthews or even a Roos or Worsfold. They are on top of things: anticipating problems and making things happen rather than simply waiting and then reacting.

Yes, Lyon does seem to have a penchant for counter-intuitive match ups: although it seems to me that this is one of the more unpopular aspects of his coaching style on this forum (and, so far, I think the GT-Rendell matchups were better thought out than most of RL's).

But Lyon just doesn't come across as a guy who takes charge and makes some tough decisions when things start to develop during games. I think he probably went a bit better in the 4th quarter on Friday than he has in previous games. Maybe he's becoming a bit more flexible.

But think back to the Dogs, Filth, Kangaroos, Hawthorn games from earlier in the season. The team often seemed stuck in a rut. Some of that was due to insufficient fitness, but some of it also to inflexible coaching.

[Oh When the Saints]

You watch the match day tactics of a Sheedy or a Matthews or even a Roos or Worsfold.

Got it in one.

Sheedy = coach for 27 years
Matthews = coach for 15 years
Roos = coach for 5 years
Worsfold = coach for 4 years

Lyon = coach for 1 year.


Is it not beyond the realm of possibility that Lyon will IMPROVE as a coach and become BETTER in 2-3 years time ???

I don't reckon Sheedy or Matthews were great at anticipating matchups when they were in their first season as AFL coaches.

[Dan Warna]

what owts said.

yes well it was clearly well spotted by Loris

i didn't realise we had to wait 2 to 3 years for RL to develop into a coach that can adapt to changes by oppositions coaches.

[mischa]

on you loriswa great to watch your analyis of the game don't expect to many to agree with you , we had things going very nicely but the normal St Kilda wankers didn't like that - the grass must be greener on the other side of the fence - to hang in with a coach to for ten years and pick up a flag aint what they are about they want it instantly and we all klnow it aint gonna happen but the tool4eva and the rod butters of this world are just keen to push their personal egos they don't actually care about our beloved club

Great, sane post is all I can say!

[rodgerfox]

In fairness to the 'inflexible' comments regarding Lyon's coaching, he has to be 'inflexible'.

When a team is learning to play a certain style, you simply have to stick to it. Time and time again. Over and over again.

If it doesn't appear to be working, you shouldn't panic and change tact for a short term gain. If you believe in your plan, you must stick to it until everyone gets it 110%.

Sometimes it takes 3-4 years. If you deviate from it, it may never come together.

This is why changing coaches sets you back. You may end up in front eventually, but it takes time.

I spoke to GT about this, at a time when he was being criticised for having no 'plan B'. His philosophy is that of most AFL coaches including Ross Lyon - you must practice, practice, practice a consistent game plan and style if you want it to become second nature.

Sometimes this also means leaving a guy in a position where he is being beaten. They need to learn, and they won't if they keep getting shifted all over the place at the first sign of them getting beaten.

It's very frustrating to watch as a supporter, but let's face it - when we changed coach we conceded 2007 for this reason.

If Harves and G give it away after this year, 2008 will be another lean year also.

[kalsaint]

RL appears a little inflexible at times.

Truer words were never written.

What examples do you have to prove he is any more or less flexible than any other coach in the AFL?

Evidence please ...

Yep
I am also guilty at having a whinge about lack of change on game day when things arent going to plan.

OWTS your are right. All coaches sometimes fail to make the required moves at the right time. They also make several subtle moves that we may not know about.

I was probably on GT's case more about this aspect of game day coaching than any other. Kenny Sheldon is one I reckon was always willing to make the change as/is was Sheedy.

[joffaboy]

A team that buthcers the ball going into the forward fifty as often as we did, especially in the third qtr and coming out of the fifty., especially in the third qtr and lose does not deserve to win or even compete in the finals.

Our skills are not up to par, our foot skills are just terrible, giving away at least two gift goals is unforgivable in a tight game.

You can talk about gameplans (which i though was sound on friday) inflexibility (so Wirrupunda beat Clarke and some Einsteins could see it in the first quarter. May i remind them that we were up 5 goals to one in the first quarter break, so having a look at the big picture may be an idea ), and if Blake should have been moved off Cousins, the facts are we beat ourselves with our appalling disposals and skills.

The third quarter was the most dissapointed i have been from a St.Kilda team for years. Everything to play for and they just weren't up for it.

Lyon could do nothing about disposal. Lyon could do nothing about leg speed (were are so pedrestrian it is not funny).

This is a moot argument when we have bigger fundamental problems at St.Kilda.

Leg speed in the midfield and bloody simple turnovers and disposals are what is critical for the Saints to ever go forward.

[meher baba]

In fairness to the 'inflexible' comments regarding Lyon's coaching, he has to be 'inflexible'.

When a team is learning to play a certain style, you simply have to stick to it. Time and time again. Over and over again.

If it doesn't appear to be working, you shouldn't panic and change tact for a short term gain. If you believe in your plan, you must stick to it until everyone gets it 110%.

Sometimes it takes 3-4 years. If you deviate from it, it may never come together.

This is why changing coaches sets you back. You may end up in front eventually, but it takes time.

I spoke to GT about this, at a time when he was being criticised for having no 'plan B'. His philosophy is that of most AFL coaches including Ross Lyon - you must practice, practice, practice a consistent game plan and style if you want it to become second nature.

Sometimes this also means leaving a guy in a position where he is being beaten. They need to learn, and they won't if they keep getting shifted all over the place at the first sign of them getting beaten.

I agree that coaches who try to use different tactics every game are going to confuse their players and end up taking the team backwards. Terry Wallace in 2006 and in the first half of 2007 is probably a classic example, and Bomber Thompson suffered from it for a while too: both now have their teams playing to a consistent plan, and the benefits of this are clear to see.

However, there is also the point I made earlier in this thread about remaining in control and making things happen rather than having things done to you by the opposition. A great coach - as opposed to simply a good coach - can work this way: can adjust their tactics to turn the game around. Worsfold did this brilliantly on Friday night: eg, the way he was able to keep Riewoldt quiet for a one and a half quarters after half time.

Neither GT nor, so far, RL have demonstrated this ability. I'd say that - in about 75% or more of our matches in the past 4 seasons - a point has been reached typically in the 3rd or 4th quarter where our game plan starts to fall apart and I (and I'm sure lots of you) started to get very agitated watching the game. We seem to be champions at letting opponents who we have on the ropes back into the game, and we very rarely come back and win games in which we are behind at three quarter time.

And I certainly don't agree that a coach should ever leave a player on an opponent who is destroying them so that they "learn" This is the AFL, not the football academy.

[Joffa Burns]

The opening quarter by the saints was as red hot as anything I have seen in the past two years. Given we have fallen away in the last term many times this year we needed to maximize the dominance we had by putting a lot of score board pressure on.

It appears the RL style of play is very taxing on the players, they looked stuffed in the 4th while Cousins looked like he’d just come on at 3 quarter time.

[Dan Warna]

fourth quarter we kicked 4:4 to 5:1 or something...

our fourth quarter was highly competitive.

it was our third quarter where we got crippled.

[Teflon]

The opening quarter by the saints was as red hot as anything I have seen in the past two years. Given we have fallen away in the last term many times this year we needed to maximize the dominance we had by putting a lot of score board pressure on.

It appears the RL style of play is very taxing on the players, they looked stuffed in the 4th while Cousins looked like he’d just come on at 3 quarter time.

Well said Joff.

And avoiding all the "20 games in and Ross is inflexible" dribble..(as Dodgy remarkably points out - HE IS TEACHING A NEW PLAYING STYLE)....that first qtr and the Melb game this year IMO are a style of footy that hasd me excited for 08 with a decent pre season under player belts....................................

IMO IF Lyon can bring the pressure of a Swans BUT mix that with the ability and potency of the St Kilda fwd line that can score quicker than the Swans ....then Im excited....

[rodgerfox]

And avoiding all the "20 games in and Ross is inflexible" dribble..(as Dodgy remarkably points out - HE IS TEACHING A NEW PLAYING STYLE

'Remarkably points out'??

I've been saying this since September last year.

[Teflon]

And avoiding all the "20 games in and Ross is inflexible" dribble..(as Dodgy remarkably points out - HE IS TEACHING A NEW PLAYING STYLE

'Remarkably points out'??

I've been saying this since September last year.

what makes you so sure I wasnt commenting on your consistency?