Maybe we should review our legal advice!!!!!!

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Riewoldting
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Post: # 440320Post Riewoldting »

I think a bit of common sense should employed here.

Bump should be taken to mean colliding with an opponent with force to divert them from their line (whether they are mobile or standing).

On the other hand, block should be taken to mean moving into the path of an opponent and contacting them not with enough force to divert them from their line, but with just enough force to maintain equilibrium and balance (because the blocker is expecting contact).

I think it's a folly to suggest that "block" means to stand statuesque in the middle of a football oval in the hope that you will obstruct an opponent's path. I mean, they would just run around you. :roll:


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St. Luke
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Post: # 440327Post St. Luke »

chook23 wrote:
That's the problem he DID NOT SAY THAT
*SIGH* I'm not arguing with anyone, I'm just completely bewildered about it all.

Does anyone have or can post exactly what Baker has said to actually incriminate himself. Other than saying he blocked a player?


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Post: # 440328Post chook23 »

St. Luke wrote:
chook23 wrote:
That's the problem he DID NOT SAY THAT
*SIGH* I'm not arguing with anyone, I'm just completely bewildered about it all.

Does anyone have or can post exactly what Baker has said to actually incriminate himself. Other than saying he blocked a player?
Either am I

just discussing

Can anyone remember the thread that had the actual rule(s) he was charged with ??
Sure it was on SS somewhere and I did not read it elsewhere.
Last edited by chook23 on Thu 23 Aug 2007 12:58pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Post: # 440333Post joffaboy »

[quote="St. Luke"]


This is bulldust!! Now they’ve even got us towing the line with this horsesh!t about Baker “deliberatelyâ€


Lance or James??

There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
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St. Luke
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Post: # 440335Post St. Luke »

:D Sorry, my post wasn't really aimed at you Joffa, I was just venting...to everyone!!! :D


When they created LENNY HAYES (in the shadow of Harvs) they forgot to break the mold (again)- hence the Supremely Incredible Jack Steven!!
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Post: # 440336Post joffaboy »

St. Luke wrote::D Sorry, my post wasn't really aimed at you Joffa, I was just venting...to everyone!!! :D
No worries mate. Understand you are not happy about the idiots at the AFL and tribunal.

I dont agree with the decision either, however the conversation was on Bakers evidence and why the tribunal intrepreted it that way.

Hopefully the appeals committee see some bloody sense.


Lance or James??

There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
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Riewoldting
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Post: # 440338Post Riewoldting »

St. Luke wrote::D Sorry, my post wasn't really aimed at you Joffa, I was just venting...to everyone!!! :D
Yeah but you've been running the same line in every post, just give it a rest


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St. Luke
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Post: # 440340Post St. Luke »

Riewoldting wrote:
St. Luke wrote::D Sorry, my post wasn't really aimed at you Joffa, I was just venting...to everyone!!! :D
Yeah but you've been running the same line in every post, just give it a rest
Nope! I won't! :twisted:


When they created LENNY HAYES (in the shadow of Harvs) they forgot to break the mold (again)- hence the Supremely Incredible Jack Steven!!
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Post: # 440348Post aussierules0k »

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Mr X from the West
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Post: # 440367Post Mr X from the West »

I suspect it will all hang on legal technicalities. Did Baker's "illegal block" of itself CAUSE the injuries to Farmer? In applying the "block", was it reasoanbly foreseeable that Farmer would have sustained the injuries he did?

Or even intent. Did Bakes INTEND to hurt Farmer? If so, how? By head butting backwards in the hope that the back of head connected with Farmer's head?

I don't buy this "duty of care" argument that will NO DOUBT BE PUSHED IN BAKES' FACE TONIGHT. Bakes has a duty of care not to be negligent, reckless or deliberate in his actions, but only in as much as it would reasonably be likely to result in serious injury to Farmer. Applying a block does not of itself breach this duty of care, irrespective of whether or not the block is illegal.


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Post: # 440422Post rodgerfox »

yipper wrote:It's not that simple Joffa - by admitting to blocking a player, is to not admit to causing unreasonable contact. Baker merely entered into Farmer's path - as a defender, to cut his run into a wide open F50 area. In taking this action - Farmer has not seen him ( or maybe he did!!) and cannoned into the back of his head. It was accidental clash of heads which occured because of Farmer's lack of awareness of what is around him. Baker did not initiate an illegal contact. He merely got in his way to guard his man.
True, however this whole thing could have been avoided had someone with half a brain from our club advised Baker as to what to say/not to say.

Seriously, this is simply mind boggling that we could get this so wrong as a club.

The only hope is that Baker goes in tonight and lies. Changes his story completely.

Cop the $15k for lying, but play this week.

Say he didn't block him. Say he didn't see him coming at all.


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Post: # 440432Post joffaboy »

rodgerfox wrote: True, however this whole thing could have been avoided had someone with half a brain from our club advised Baker as to what to say/not to say.

Seriously, this is simply mind boggling that we could get this so wrong as a club.

The only hope is that Baker goes in tonight and lies. Changes his story completely.

Cop the $15k for lying, but play this week.

Say he didn't block him. Say he didn't see him coming at all.
Yup - or say he blocked by stopping - didn't move to block Farmer and he ran into the back of him.

Could say he is "clarifying" his evidence so there is no perception that he moved off his line.

That will F*** em. And it wont be a lie. :wink:


Lance or James??

There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
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Post: # 440434Post yipper »

He won't be able to change his testimony now .. don't think that was the problem anyway.

They simply have to focus on what is a block - and how could he have forseen Farmer crashing into him. Blocking a player's run is not reportable - causing injury in an unreasonable action is. So, was Bakes actions unreasonable? They have to show it was not.


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Mr X from the West
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Post: # 440438Post Mr X from the West »

I doubt if Baker will even be there tonight and, if he is, his evidence can not be changed.

The grounds of appeal do not include the introduction of new (or even clarification of) evidence....but do not preclude our counsel putting a new "spin" on Baker's evidence in submissions.


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Post: # 440451Post Mr Magic »

rodgerfox wrote:
yipper wrote:It's not that simple Joffa - by admitting to blocking a player, is to not admit to causing unreasonable contact. Baker merely entered into Farmer's path - as a defender, to cut his run into a wide open F50 area. In taking this action - Farmer has not seen him ( or maybe he did!!) and cannoned into the back of his head. It was accidental clash of heads which occured because of Farmer's lack of awareness of what is around him. Baker did not initiate an illegal contact. He merely got in his way to guard his man.
True, however this whole thing could have been avoided had someone with half a brain from our club advised Baker as to what to say/not to say.

Seriously, this is simply mind boggling that we could get this so wrong as a club.


Rodger, I know this may not help in your campaign against the Admin, but maybe Bakes was advised how to answer the charge against him based on what the actual charge was?

Once inside, after it was proved that the testimony from the Freo Trainer, which was the basis of the charge, was proved to be less than satisfactory to sustain the charge, maybe the Tribunal changed the actual details of the charge during their deliberations, so that the evidence Baker gave, which they have accepted, could be used to sustain it?

I don't think this scenario will prove to be too far from the truth. I get the feeling that the Freo Trainer's initial evidence was that Baker charged in to Farmer and gave him a 'hip and shoulder' which caused the damage to Farmer. If so, then Baker's defence was 'I did not, I just blocked him and he ran into me'.
Once the Freo Trainers recollections were found to be faulty, The Tribunal needed to work out a way to find Bakes guilty using what he had told them. Hence this BS about an 'illegal act' being deemed 'reckless' when more than 5m away from the ball.


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Post: # 440461Post rogerwa »

agree with being poorly advised...we dont have boffins representing us we have baboons

even blind fredy knows ya never admit any guilt be it a car accident,work accident,slipping/tripping in street/shop whatever the event just stf up & dont admit to any liability no matter how small it seems

how our socalled legal experts got that wrong has got me stuffed...fools i say bloody fools

pyss our legal duds off & spend some of our mill buck profit bringing in sydneys crew...if they got involved in a case like this baker would have ended up with 3 brownlow votes not 7 bloody weeks


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Post: # 440502Post Mr X from the West »

Well spoken Rog - I know who Fremantle use as their advocate and he is a high profile commercial silk here in Perth who is not only legally and commercially savvy but also street wise.


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Post: # 440509Post rogerwa »

all he had to say was that farmer ran into the back of him...which is a free kick to baker that the 3 umpires missed
or if ya take it to its full extreems farmer should have been charged with
head high contact to baker

should have read
farmer head high contact to baker..2 weeks
farmer forcefull contact..2 weeks
farmer behind play ..2 weeks
farmers poor history..4 weeks

= 10 weeks to farmer


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Post: # 440526Post SteveStevens66 »

Riewoldting wrote:Steve

The difference is that a block can be a type of shepherd.

Under Law 15.4.2:

"A Shepherd is using the body or arm to push, bump or block:

(a) a Player who does not have possession of the football and who is no further than 5 metres away from the football at the time when the push, bump or block occurs ... "

The ordinary dictionary meaning of "block" is: "to act so as to obstruct an opponent".

The ordinary dictionary meaning of "bump" is: "to come more or less heavily in contact with; strike; collide with".

Baker's testimony was that he did not bump Farmer, but stood in his path.
Riewoldting, thanks for the clarification. It seems from this definition that the "block" does not even necessarily require physical contact, whereas a "bump" does. It seems to me that if one can "block" without touching one's opponent, then this can be said of Baker's actions. He had his back to Farmer, didn't touch him but, rather, Farmer ran into him.

In this case the definition of "block" seems essential because it absolves Baker of guilt.


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Post: # 440531Post yipper »

SteveStevens66 wrote:
Riewoldting wrote:Steve

The difference is that a block can be a type of shepherd.

Under Law 15.4.2:

"A Shepherd is using the body or arm to push, bump or block:

(a) a Player who does not have possession of the football and who is no further than 5 metres away from the football at the time when the push, bump or block occurs ... "

The ordinary dictionary meaning of "block" is: "to act so as to obstruct an opponent".

The ordinary dictionary meaning of "bump" is: "to come more or less heavily in contact with; strike; collide with".

Baker's testimony was that he did not bump Farmer, but stood in his path.
Riewoldting, thanks for the clarification. It seems from this definition that the "block" does not even necessarily require physical contact, whereas a "bump" does. It seems to me that if one can "block" without touching one's opponent, then this can be said of Baker's actions. He had his back to Farmer, didn't touch him but, rather, Farmer ran into him.

In this case the definition of "block" seems essential because it absolves Baker of guilt.


Correct - this is the guts of it I rekon.


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Post: # 440534Post Mr X from the West »

yipper wrote:
SteveStevens66 wrote:
Riewoldting wrote:Steve

The difference is that a block can be a type of shepherd.

Under Law 15.4.2:

"A Shepherd is using the body or arm to push, bump or block:

(a) a Player who does not have possession of the football and who is no further than 5 metres away from the football at the time when the push, bump or block occurs ... "

The ordinary dictionary meaning of "block" is: "to act so as to obstruct an opponent".

The ordinary dictionary meaning of "bump" is: "to come more or less heavily in contact with; strike; collide with".

Baker's testimony was that he did not bump Farmer, but stood in his path.
Riewoldting, thanks for the clarification. It seems from this definition that the "block" does not even necessarily require physical contact, whereas a "bump" does. It seems to me that if one can "block" without touching one's opponent, then this can be said of Baker's actions. He had his back to Farmer, didn't touch him but, rather, Farmer ran into him.

In this case the definition of "block" seems essential because it absolves Baker of guilt.


Correct - this is the guts of it I rekon.
Yes, well I hope our much discussed Mr Priest is cognisant of this AND RAISES IT IN HIS SUBMISSIONS TONIGHT!!!!


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Post: # 440542Post SteveStevens66 »

Do we know if Mr. Priest will be leading the appeal?

Last time the Saints called in a Priest it didn't help much. :)

I'd be happier with David Grace.


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Post: # 440545Post joffaboy »

SteveStevens66 wrote:Do we know if Mr. Priest will be leading the appeal?

Last time the Saints called in a Priest it didn't help much. :)

I'd be happier with David Grace.
A Priest for the Saints seem appropriate.


Lance or James??

There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
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Riewoldting
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Post: # 440554Post Riewoldting »

SteveStevens66 wrote:
Riewoldting wrote:Steve

The difference is that a block can be a type of shepherd.

Under Law 15.4.2:

"A Shepherd is using the body or arm to push, bump or block:

(a) a Player who does not have possession of the football and who is no further than 5 metres away from the football at the time when the push, bump or block occurs ... "

The ordinary dictionary meaning of "block" is: "to act so as to obstruct an opponent".

The ordinary dictionary meaning of "bump" is: "to come more or less heavily in contact with; strike; collide with".

Baker's testimony was that he did not bump Farmer, but stood in his path.
Riewoldting, thanks for the clarification. It seems from this definition that the "block" does not even necessarily require physical contact, whereas a "bump" does. It seems to me that if one can "block" without touching one's opponent, then this can be said of Baker's actions. He had his back to Farmer, didn't touch him but, rather, Farmer ran into him.

In this case the definition of "block" seems essential because it absolves Baker of guilt.
Yes - and all the common law principles surrounding foreseeability, reasonable care, causation, volenti non fit injuria, novus actus interveniens, contributory negligence and remoteness of damage suggest that Farmer has nobody but himself to blame.


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Post: # 440558Post stinger »

The Peanut wrote:. . . what he is saying is Bakes should have lied. Then his evidence would not have matched Ricky Nixon's.

Oh is see now . . . when at a tribunal you are not allowed to tell the truth or use common sense.
fancy the prick suggesting that bakes should tell porkies..........nothing surprises me about afl officials ...or former officials...ffs.......what next........


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