What is best?????? Now vs Future????

[saintsRrising]

And there is the rub....


What is best to try and win a flag this year,

What is best to try and win a flag in 2008,

What is best to try and win a flag in 2009 are all different things


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

What is best to try and win a flag this year?

Just keep picking the bset possible 22.....

What is best to try and win a flag in 2008?

Tank now...put all the players into rehab that need it now.. rest Ball, GTrain etc....
Play in the senioirs all the fringe players that may make it...to have a good look at them at the highest level. Cut those that you don't think wil make it based on better info.

START the pre-season training NOW...ie move away from training for this year to preparation and conditioning for the the 2008 season.


What is best to try and win a flag in 2009?

as with the last guidelines but also.....:
*Retire Banger....
*consider whether GTrain is a 2 year player...I think he is.
*treat 2008 asa development year for all the players that you think will be good enough...but currently are not...ie Armo.. this may fr example ean Van Reehan getting some games in 2007 rather than 2008.




Which way would you like to go????

[strauchanie]

Which way would you like to go????

definitely try our best to make finals this year for a few reasons:

1. Despite geelong's dominance, i still see this as the most even year for a long time, and a Saints side near full strength and with a bit of confidence could win the flag, especially if we keep playing in Melbourne.
2. Even if we lose all 3 games, i see us finishing above atleast the tigers, blues, demons, dogs and essendon. (i.e. were not gonna get that high a draft pick)
3. the draft is pretty average after the first 2 picks, so finishing 10th instead of 5th isn't gonna be that big an advantage, IMO

[JeffDunne]

If anyone at the club is thinking anything other than option 1 they should leave now.

[saintsRrising]

If anyone at the club is thinking anything other than option 1 they should leave now.

I actually agree....

but have just put this up asa discussion point

[skeptic]

i just don't see why we couldn't put games into players that are more talented than Blake and not have it regarded as tanking

[Otiman]

The future is now.

[Dan Warna]

i just don't see why we couldn't put games into players that are more talented than Blake and not have it regarded as tanking

blake is hardly our worst player.

RL seems to have faith in him.

even gets the odd run in the ruck most games, as well as tagging roles and floating jobs.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Play to win.

Period.

Rebuilding projects are fascinating and all... but for now, we just need to reload. There are hard decisions to be made. Whether or not to emulate the bottom of the ladder teams is not one of them.

[saintsRrising]

Play to win.

Whether or not to emulate the bottom of the ladder teams is not one of them.

My tanking comment.....reloading etc was not meant to refer to the Tigers or Blues...But rather to compare ouslves with other ""final eight" teams who have rebuilt themselves...or are doing so...
ie
Geelong
Port Adelaide
Collingwood

These three teams have all tanked in different ways....in terms of re-adjusting their lists, early operations...playing more young players.


and then in a different way...the Lions....who with retiements are having a more major rebuild....and "tanled" a bit more than the other 3 teams.

Now with the Pies you can argue that a big injury list forced them to tank....but on the other hand you have to have developed young players to come in.


The Dons also tankeed...but just for a year (mind youa year where the draft was very very attractive....and I think that part of the reason for Sheedy going is that his Board would have liked him to have gone further...and in particular to stop recruiting older players from other clubs.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Play to win.

Whether or not to emulate the bottom of the ladder teams is not one of them.

My tanking comment.....reloading etc was not meant to refer to the Tigers or Blues...But rather to compare ouslves with other ""final eight" teams who have rebuilt themselves...or are doing so...
ie
Geelong
Port Adelaide
Collingwood

These three teams have all tanked in different ways....in terms of re-adjusting their lists, early operations...playing more young players.

I'll disagree with your examples... but for the record, I understood the question, and my response to tanking was not to you specifically, but to the sentiment I've seen her so mcuh this year

Geelong finished 10th last year at 10w 1d 11l. They had a bad year, but if that's tanking, that's very poor tanking.

Port Adelaide has spent a couple of years rebuilding. Cutting out a lot of veterans in order to both see where they are at and not cling to a position that couldn't net another premiership anyway. I'm impressed by them, but have to admit, I think they've got significant question marks that I'll be interested to see how they address come finals time. I see no resemblance between where we are now, and where Port was recently. I don't see Port as tanking so much as accepting reality when it happened.

Collingwood's approach of cutting anyone they didn't see as good enough to play in a premiership (the Clokes for example) and try and blood as many guys as possible while not playing favourites too much. Of course, being gutsy in that way looks better when they get the results they have this year. An approach that we could/should take, and my be taking, but that's a debate for other threads - I wouldn't equate it to tanking. If C'wood are hoping for high draft picks, they've got a funny way of going about it the last 2 years.

[saintsRrising]

Take tanking to mean for the purposes of this string to mean setting yourself up for next year....rather than to mean to secure priorty or low picks only...

[saintsRrising]

Collingwood's approach of cutting anyone they didn't see as good enough to play in a premiership (the Clokes for example) and try and blood as many guys as possible while not playing favourites too much. Of course, being gutsy in that way looks better when they get the results they have this year. An approach that we could/should take, and my be taking,
.

Yes...good point...and one that I raiseda while back.

Are we content with just playing finals....or is the goal to build a Premiership team???

but that's a debate for other threads - I wouldn't equate it to tanking. If C'wood are hoping for high draft picks, they've got a funny way of going about it the last 2 years.

No bang it in this one...


Ignore the word tanking if you like.....

What is your strategy to win a premiership????

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Ignore the word tanking if you like.....

What is your strategy to win a premiership????

Priority 1 has to be keeping everyone healthy. The biggest problem as a supporter is that it's hard so say how close/far we really are. Since the break, the W/L looks good, but the last month sure hasn't been inspiring... but if we'd had that team for the first half of the year, how many more wins would we have? would form and confidence be worth a goal or two a game? Would we be bona fide top 4, or just part of the next pack up.

From a list management POV, I'd need to be able to read Lyon's mind, but for the sake of my own narcissism, Thommo & Clark go, Harvey and G decide for themselves. If G's hanging around, Brooks is probably done, because it doesn't look like Lyon sees him as a ruck, and we need the next candidate. Perhaps try and drop Raymond to the rookie list (I know nothing about him other than a lot of posters don't rate him).

If it were me, I'd be looking through the draft, and as well as looking for the talent I can get with my picks, seeing if there's a mix of talent/need I can get by targeting other picks - e.g. if there are a couple of players I want in the 20-30 range, see if someone with a pick there sees value in someone I can live without (and if that's pretty vague, it's because other than Voss, I don't see us actively shopping anyone, but we'll be open to trading just about anyone). This process would likely be a lot of work which would show little result fans could measure.

For next year, keep the competition for spots going. Mini, Armitage, Birss and CJ all ave upside, but none have really delivered. IMO best has been Birss till now, but he's certainly not walk up start good. If one can hold down a job next year, there'll be another spot in '09 in the post-Harvey world.

The main thing we need as supporters? Patience. We won't even know if we're on a winner or a dud until '08 (barring a miracle finals run of course). But that doesn't make for nice controversial threads on message boards.

[saintsRrising]

Priority 1 has to be keeping everyone healthy.

Indeed. Our current reduction in injuries give some hope....as dose the hiring of the AIS boffins.

On the downside we need better traing facilities and this has not been resolved...and allowing for build time this is say at least 18 months away....

The biggest problem as a supporter is that it's hard so say how close/far we really are. Since the break, the W/L looks good, but the last month sure hasn't been inspiring... but if we'd had that team for the first half of the year, how many more wins would we have? would form and confidence be worth a goal or two a game? Would we be bona fide top 4, or just part of the next pack up.

Yes...how much of our near misses is that the players are simply not good enough. Or is it lack of confidence....and match conditioning.

We ceratainly need more out of players such as X.

From a list management POV, I'd need to be able to read Lyon's mind, but for the sake of my own narcissism, Thommo & Clark go,

Agree

Harvey and G decide for themselves.

Agree...but it is good that RL is proactive in convincing them to stay. Good players are hard to get. Get the Gtrains body right and you will still havea very good player.

If G's hanging around, Brooks is probably done, because it doesn't look like Lyon sees him as a ruck, and we need the next candidate.

If G stays....and with a choisce of Kosi, Roo and Gtrain....then if Brooks is viwed asa key forward then having BOTH Brooks and Watts would bea be a big chunk of your list in wating for 2008 and beyond.

Perhaps try and drop Raymond to the rookie list (I know nothing about him other than a lot of posters don't rate him).

I think Raymond is gone.

If it were me, I'd be looking through the draft, and as well as looking for the talent I can get with my picks, seeing if there's a mix of talent/need I can get by targeting other picks - e.g. if there are a couple of players I want in the 20-30 range, see if someone with a pick there sees value in someone I can live without (and if that's pretty vague, it's because other than Voss, I don't see us actively shopping anyone, but we'll be open to trading just about anyone). This process would likely be a lot of work which would show little result fans could measure.

I think RL has some firm views on what he wants......and that he may be a trader. However on the surface we don't appear to have a lot to trade.

Someone like Voss has no trade value.
So does he trade picks for someone??

I think the ACTUAL prognosis on Gardiner wil havea larger bearing on trading. If RL is confident about Gardiner actually playinga reasonable number of games.......thena Ruck of No1 Gardiner spelled by Kosi...with Rix as injury back up would be deemed to be ok. With VR then allowed a few years to bloom...along with another kid drafted or rookied.


If the prognosis is say not good...with gardiner being more maybe that definaite to play.......then RL who has expressed preference fora good ruck divsion may try and be more active in the ruck area. however their has to be someone to trade for and there do not appear to bea lot of options available.

Key backmen. Yes RL would like someone...but with Max, Goose..backed up by Sam and Gilbert who both have height...I think that Rl will give our midfielda higher priority.

Mids. A fitter Armo will start to slot in next year..

But we need more.....Thommo will be gone. Harvey maybe.....and we do not have enough this year.



Is Mini being reformed????

Can one of Geary or Eddy step up???

Does RL believe he can polish the rough diamond of CJ....or is he too flawed??

X-man....we desperately need him to becaome a hf-midfielder.......but would the under achieving X be the player that RL decides to sacrifice as a trade. Complicating this is Raph...


I go back to your first point...fitness...IF we could geta fully fit midfield group......then our shaortage of mids is lessen. A fit Ball would meana lot to us.

However just imagine if our midfield group was omplemented witha Nathan Foley type.....

I believe that our midfield lacks at least one more classy option......in addition to armo who I believe will make it.

Mini, Geary or Eddy need to step up....or X man step to another level.

Will RL put his faith in developing what he has....or will he seek to trade.



However with trades I am of the viw that you can rarely obataina good existing player.

Trading for rough diamonds is always risky....

For next year, keep the competition for spots going. Mini, Armitage, Birss and CJ all ave upside, but none have really delivered. IMO best has been Birss till now, but he's certainly not walk up start good. If one can hold down a job next year, there'll be another spot in '09 in the post-Harvey world.

The main thing we need as supporters? Patience. We won't even know if we're on a winner or a dud until '08 (barring a miracle finals run of course). But that doesn't make for nice controversial threads on message boards.

Indeed. However I am of the view that we are heading in the right direction.

[St. Luke]

We most definitely need to get our act together……..RIGHT NOW!! A season in footy is such a long struggle to get through and ‘08 holds no promise of having us any better off re: injuries than we are now! While we might not be in the best position on the ladder and face the easiest of adversaries in the coming weeks it will show us where we are as a team. Can we hold it together when we’re under fire? Under pressure? Can we achieve a sense of belief that we are good enough to beat even the best teams? Where has that spark gone from the West Coast battle??? Our confidence is killing us atm and we need to get that back fast or we’ll be out of this season fast! If anyone thinks the Cats season is remarkable, imagine having our boys knock em out in a Preliminary final!! It can be done! We have the team to do it! We just need to believe we can!