Sheahan: Saints goal-starved - Herald-Sun Article

[TimeToShineFellas]

Source: http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/ ... 72,00.html

Sheahan: Saints goal-starved
15 August 2007 Herald Sun
Mike Sheahan

THERE are a hundred stories in the Herald Sun's weekly Ladder with the Lot, Mike Sheahan writes. One leapt out this week.

Guess which club has kicked the fewest points after 19 rounds with 1548, an average of 81 a game?

No, no and no.

St Kilda, actually. The club with Nick Riewoldt, Fraser Gehrig, Justin Koschitzke and Stephen Milne in its forward line.

The club that led the competition in points scored in 2005.

It is irrefutable proof of the change in the way the Saints have played this year, their problems in the midfield, the increased emphasis on defence and accountability from new coach Ross Lyon.

St Kilda's total of 220 goals is nine fewer than the Adelaide figure. Bottom team Richmond has kicked 243.

Asked at a media conference yesterday if he could "put your finger on what's costing you games", Lyon said: "Yeah, not kicking enough goals."

He did, though, reject the comparison with 2005, when the free-wheeling Saints finished third under Grant Thomas.

"Everyone talks about '04, '05. If you want to go to recent history, which is '06, they were actually the eighth-ranked attack (7th). It's easy to romance about 04-05," Lyon said.

After 19 rounds in 2005, Gehrig, Milne, Koschitzke and Riewoldt had kicked 159 goals. The corresponding figure this year is 126.

Lyon said the Saints suffered from poor ball use early in the season, but recently averaged 14 goals a game, "which is thereabouts".

"Not too many teams kick 15-16 goals against them (Sydney). (The Saints kicked 9.11 against the Swans on Saturday night, losing by 17 points).

The coach said the team had failed in last quarters recently for a combination of reasons. "Our last quarters are a big worry. Is that tightening up? Is that a fitness issue? Is that the opposition? It's probably a combination of all three.

"It's a little bit structural and a little bit the opposition.

"We want more goals and we think we're capable of it. It's a bit about midfield dominance. When your midfield's on top, you're scoring, when it's not, you know . . . "

The Saints rank 16th for centre clearances and 14th for inside 50s this year.

Figures that reflect a problem in the ruck and the assorted worries for key midfielders Lenny Hayes, Luke Ball, Robert Harvey and Nick Dal Santo.

Leigh Montagna has been the most productive and consistent of the midfielders.

Hayes is in his first season after a knee reconstruction; Ball has carried a groin problem from the opening round; Harvey has struggled since his triumphant 350th game in Perth; and Dal Santo continues to wrestle with taggers in more ways than one. Lyon still harbours hopes of playing finals.

"If we win three, I think we'll definitely be in," he said.

He freshened the group this week after a torrid encounter with Sydney.

"It is a long grinding year and the Swans play an incredibly physical brand. Ninety-odd stoppages and we average maybe 60. They had 74 tackles, we had 60 so it was a really brutal game."

Lyon defended Gehrig, who has struggled in the past fortnight.

"The fact is he's 31 and, in talking to him, it's not easy for a power forward these days.

"You used to be able to play one-on-one footy inside 50 and isolate, but you see Jonathan Brown, you see Nick Riewoldt, (Matthew) Pavlich, they've got to combat two or three because opposition coaches say, 'We're not going to allow you to kick six'.

"I think that frustrates him, the change in the modern game. You can't get the isolation you used to be able to get."

[meher baba]

"We want more goals and we think we're capable of it. It's a bit about midfield dominance. When your midfield's on top, you're scoring, when it's not, you know . . . "

The Saints rank 16th for centre clearances and 14th for inside 50s this year.

We did brilliantly in the clearances on Saturday night, so surely that wasn't why we only kicked 9 goals against the Swans.

"The fact is he's 31 and, in talking to him, it's not easy for a power forward these days.

"You used to be able to play one-on-one footy inside 50 and isolate, but you see Jonathan Brown, you see Nick Riewoldt, (Matthew) Pavlich, they've got to combat two or three because opposition coaches say, 'We're not going to allow you to kick six'.

"I think that frustrates him, the change in the modern game. You can't get the isolation you used to be able to get."

We experienced plenty of flooding against us in 2005 and 2006, and Gehrig still kicked plenty of goals. I don't actually recall the ball going to Gehrig very often in recent games when he was outnumbered (that's more Riewoldt's experience).

I think Lyon's earlier point about the lack of midfield dominance is far more relevant to Gehrig's poor form in recent games.

Well, Mr Lyon, the solution is in your hands. Experienced, hard nuts and young players with potential such as Thommo, Armo, Birss (against the Swans) and even McQualter are sitting in the stands while Blake, Attard and Jones have been running around in the midfield doing bugger all. (And didn't Blake do a superb job against Goodes on Saturday......not.) [/b]

[TimeToShineFellas]

In the actual hard-copy of the Herald Sun article it compared the "Big 4"'s goals kicked*

In 2007 - Gehrig 44, Riewoldt 34, Milne 29, Koschitzke 19 ........ 126
In 2006 - Gehrig 55, Riewoldt 51, Milne 23, Koschitzke 2 .......... 131
In 2005 - Gehrig 65, Riewoldt 23, Milne 47, Koschitzke 24 ........ 159

Points For*.

2007 - 1548 (16th)
2006 - 1768 (7th)
2005 - 2038 (1st)

Inside 50s*.

2007 - 931 (14th)
2006 - 1006 (3rd)
2005 - 1039 (2nd)

Centre clearances*.

2007 - 212 (16th)
2006 - 209 (16th)
2005 - 263 (5th)

*ALL STATS TO END OF ROUND 19

[Life Long Saint]

Lyon defended Gehrig, who has struggled in the past fortnight.

"The fact is he's 31 and, in talking to him, it's not easy for a power forward these days.

"You used to be able to play one-on-one footy inside 50 and isolate, but you see Jonathan Brown, you see Nick Riewoldt, (Matthew) Pavlich, they've got to combat two or three because opposition coaches say, 'We're not going to allow you to kick six'.

"I think that frustrates him, the change in the modern game. You can't get the isolation you used to be able to get."

Why does our game plan involve a 31yo gorilla spending as much time in the centre square as he does inside the 50 arc?
The other players mentioned are younger and fitter than Gehrig. The game plan needs to suit the players we have.

[vacuous space]

The Saints rank 16th for centre clearances and 14th for inside 50s this year.

Figures that reflect a problem in the ruck and the assorted worries for key midfielders Lenny Hayes, Luke Ball, Robert Harvey and Nick Dal Santo.

Or perhaps, if Mike had taken a second to think things through, he would have realised that we're dead last in centre bounces contested. That comes as a direct result of the lack of goals in St. Kilda matches, which was the point of the article, wasn't it? I mean, that is pretty basic stuff. When do centre bounces happen? After a goal. Duh.

[bigcarl]

RL places too much emphasis on "accountability" and not enough on putting a score on the board.

half the time our blokes are more worried about where their opponent is than getting the ball and kicking a goal

it is becoming increasingly clear that the club erred gravely by sacking GT

[Mr Magic]

RL has places too much emphasis on "accountability" and not enough on putting a score on the board.

half the time our blokes are more worried about where their opponent is than getting the ball and kicking a goal

it is becoming increasingly clear that the club erred gravely by sacking GT

In your opinion bigcarl, not necessarily everybody else's.

[bigcarl]

In your opinion bigcarl, not necessarily everybody else's.

yep that's my opinion and you will find that it is shared by many fans ... not all, but many

[Mr Magic]

In your opinion bigcarl, not necessarily everybody else's.

yep that's my opinion and you will find that it is shared by many fans ... not all, but many

I thought it may have been as I don't recall ever seeing/reading anybody official state that the Club had made a mistake in sacking GT.

BTW, in your opinion, what percentage of Saints fans do you think share your perception?

And is your opinion of that percentage shaped by discussion on Saintsational?

[bigcarl]

of course the club's not going to admit it has made a mistake. i'd never expect them to. takes a big man to admit you are wrong, especially on decisions of this magnitute

but our ladder position and general ineptitude this season suggests otherwise ... also the fact that we'll probably not be in the finals and are playing without confidence and self belief

there's a lot who won't say what they truly believe for fear of being howled down and accused of disloyalty.

but you'll get more from fans in general conversation than you will on a public forum like this.

a lot don't like the gameplan and wonder how it is that we are now on a par with teams like the bulldogs who we have generally blown away in recent seasons

[spert]

I see someone else here has noticed our players seem to be more intent on preventing the opposition getting the ball instead of getting it first..in the midfield especially.
The plain fact of the matter is that our forward line is mostly out of form. Roo aside, Gehrig, Milne and XCLarke are all out of form, not winning contests, making poor decisions and being undisciplined and as a result that's three goal kickers who are not kicking goals and if that happens in a forward line, you struggle to kick winning scores.
Although I think RL has some good ideas, his current game plan or whatever is not working. You dont end up on the bottom of the stats ladder and expect to contest a flag.

[Mr Magic]

bigcarl, maybe the Club don't think they've made a mistake so they don't need to announce that they have?

From those members/fans I have spoken to there is almost a unanimous feeling - we hate the way we are playing and we would love to be in Geelong's position (on top of the ladder) but it's way too early to make any decision on the merit of the decision to sack GT.
EXCEPT those who felt the GT sacking was wrong and are looking for any reason to criticize the Club over it.

[bigcarl]

From those members/fans I have spoken to there is almost a unanimous feeling - we hate the way we are playing and we would love to be in Geelong's position (on top of the ladder)

isn't the way we are playing directly linked to the coach?

anyway, as to your question on the percentage who think the club erred, the only way you'd get an honest assessment would be by secret ballot. many are too afraid to make waves.

and in any case, it is way too late to change what is past.

looking forward, i just hope RL surrounds himself with and listens to people who know what they are talking about.

i hope he shelves this ultra-defensive "numbers behind the ball" gameplan and reverts to what made us successful quite recently.

i'm very confused as to why a forward line that contains some of the best forwards in the league is the worst performed in the competition.

geelong seems to have learned something from the beltings we gave them in the recent past. they are playing with the sort of passion and spirit that made us a feared opponent 2004-2006

if we're not there, i genuinely hope they win it. should have been us, but rather a victorian team bring the cup back than it go to another of the league's interstate love children

[barks4eva]

Centre clearances

2007 - 212 (16th)

2006 - 209 (16th)

At least we've improved a bit this year

[Life Long Saint]

Thankfully we have Rix to give us those extra 3

[TimeToShineFellas]

it is becoming increasingly clear that the club erred gravely by sacking GT

With all due respect bigcarl............ move on. GT is gone.

[saintsRrising]

it is becoming increasingly clear that the club erred gravely by sacking GT

Yes they did err gravely......they did not sack him early enough....

the following players, and why have their careers not gone to plan.....

(the post on X, and after writing a brief history of Barry Brooks on another post it got me thinking about our top choices)


Barry Brooks: Tasmania U18, All Australian U18, First round pick 2001 (#15) - 7 AFL games in 6 seasons....Ruck

Matthew Ferguson: Vic Country U18, All Australian U18, Second round pick 2001 (#22) - 8 AFL games in 5 seasons....HB/HF

Raphael Clarke: Northern Territory U18, All Australian U18, First round pick 2003 (#8) - 21 AFL games in 4 seasons....Utility

Fergus Watts: Vic Metro U18, All Australian U18, First round pick 2003 (#14) - 6 AFL games in 4 seasons....CHF/FF

Andrew McQualter: Vic Country U18, All Australian U18, First round pick 2004 (#17) - 1 AFL games in 3 seasons....Rover/BP

.
.
.
.
All are highly credentialled juniors with good pedigree, all tested well, and high hopes were justified for all of them......how would our side be going if these players lived up to expectation...


All of these players at 18 were 'blue chip' investments......and should have been 150+ gamers.....not becase of where they were picked in the draft.....but why they were picked there..

Now if some of that lot (not all as you do not expect perfection) had been chosen and actually DEVELOPED correctly....you would find that our goal output , not to mention win/loss ratio, would both be better this year.










And not to mention areas such as injury management and rookie development which are on the improve as well....

[Dan Warna]

we weren't 16th for according to final siren for hitouts or clearnances.

I can't find the clearance stats as they were posted to me, however our hitout stats saw us 13th in 06, with collingwood, kangaroos and essendon (hille lol) below us)

even in 2007 we are not 16th on hitouts.

pro stats have us on 13th as well.

I posted the data from pro stats earlier in the season, however I dont have that email in my in tray any more.

I will endeavour to contact my friend/associate who can access the data for free rather than paying $44 however if anyone can link back to that data I posted (can't searcfh saintsational ) that would be appreciated.

you can either believe sheehan or final siren/pro stats.

ALSO

interestingly our inside 50s have plummetted, but I can't really see that as being an issue as we were told inside 50s are no where near as important at clearances and hitouts

cheers

Dan

[barks4eva]

dan, it would seem that stats only tell a bit of the story and FWIW different statistics seem to be given from different companies

FYI there was an article published in the sun that I read on here, last October which had St.Kilda ranked 15th for clearances and 16th for first hands on the ball

Perhaps after 19 rounds in 2006 we were 16th for clearances and improved that to finish 15th after round 22

The herald sun article that I read on saintsational as I do not buy the paper contrary to other nonsense posted about me, also had St.Kilda ranked 13th for something

IIRC it was 13th for goals from stoppages


dan, I hope you finally desist from calling me a liar, as I have only quoted direct stats as published in the media and have not made these up myself, as you have consistently and incorrectly claimed

[WinnersOnly]

Our Centre Clearance stats have pressured our defence!

Our lack of centre clearance ability has been issue since mid way through 2005 and still is. The only true ball winner we have at centre bounces in Luke BALL and due to his injury all he can do is dive on the ball. The opposition knows this and just shut him down when he goes to ground.

We lack running power and aggression through the centre. In 2005 when POWELL, THOMMO, BAKES and LENNY were firing we didn't take a backward step, now we are happy to let the opposition dictate. So much for the extra mongrel LYON would bring to the club we have gone backwards in that regard.

Given the added pressure our defense has stood up very well. A lot of this has to do with the flooding game plan Lyon has introduced. This is also been the exact cause of our inability to score. All LYON has done is shuffled the hole team into 3/4 of the field to fill our inadequacies and will continue to do so until we have the mid field to cope with his game plan.

[Dan Warna]

what barks sed

You'll note my post was directed at sheehan.

As for abuse, or calling folks liars, I hope you note that I have tried to refrain from the type of arguements we had earlier in the year and late last year.

still to find a stat 'first hands on the ball' tho ?