How to fix the Saints!

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saintsRrising
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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1908895Post saintsRrising »

skeptic wrote: Sun 13 Jun 2021 11:03pm

The list

Got to go
Hannerbery, McKenrnan, Geary (retire), Carlisle (retire), Kent, Lonie, Roberton (retired), Hunter, Frawley and Alabakis

All of them absolutely no good to us. Either can’t play or can’t get on the park

That’s 10. Would be tempted to add one of Joyce or Clavarino to that list as well as Dmac + Wood but how many can you replace in one off-season... I would dare say all should get another year because they could at least come in and compete.

Dunstan is another one I would have cut but he’s upped his performance and can at least compete at the level

Pretty much my thoughts.



2021 is essentially over. Our selections now need to be driven by developing our team for the future and selection should be driven by this. If we lose a few more games than we might of, who cares, our draft picks will only be better.

Clavarino- If they have not already put a line through Clavarino they need to be playing him more in the seniors to decide if he is worth keeping or not. On TV he looked ok, but watching it at the game one would know how well he was positioning etc. Plus how is his pace? Watching on TV I cannot tell.


With players like Battle, give him a run at one position for the rest of the year whether that be CHB , or forward. I would favour CHB.

Byrnes and Bytel need games. They may have some shockers, but they will get better. With other mids out injured it make sense to keep playing them. I personally prefer having an extra mid in the team anyway.

King. The way he has been used has thrown him to the wolves. The pressure is more intense and his body gets beaten up more. Move him away from fall forward, or at least just make it part of the game. Letting King contantlt be on 2 or 3 opponents does not help him grow as a player.


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1908922Post Yorkeys »

Make Dunstan Captain. Tell Butler he is no longer required. Hunter back to South Adelaide - his job as a trojan horse for the Crows is done, we fell for it.

Of course Luke will never be captain. We may never be fixed.

One reason is because our managers are indecisive and slow in recognising problems and doing anything constructive (if early floggings were not a wake up call...). A lot of where we are at can be traced back to poor decisions by non coaching staff quite a while ago, but those decision makers seem to be avoiding scrutiny - and bonuses you'd hope.

I guess you can't review the person that did a review because you disappear up your own orifice like that. And that would be like, say, coughing up a 30 to zip lead in the wet.


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1908923Post spert »

I they're playing as the coach instructs them to play, and it's not working.


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1908927Post Ajantis »

Work on the Fitness.............


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1908932Post bigcarl »

Agree with much of the OP.

On positional changes, guys playing multiple roles, many of them have been forced because of injuries and unavailabilities.

For instance, Carlisle played ruck/forward because we had no real back up for Marshall/Ryder. And he wasn’t getting a game anyway.

Battle has been thrown around all over the place in the absence of Marshall/Carlisle/Ryder to try to fix gaping holes in our structure at CHB and CHF. Perhaps we should park him at CHB and let him play out that season there. But then again, that will leave us without a physical presence up forward to help out King.

As for Clark, the absence of Gresham and Jones has meant we have no real creative play-makers in the middle. We have plenty of good, solid in-and-unders and accumulators - Steele, Ross, Crouch, Dunstan etc - but it’s a midfield lacking a bit of magic and creativity.

Any case, with Clark I’d argue that if he has the tank to play midfield, that is where he should be. It’s easier to find a half back flanker than a potentially elite midfielder and I think that is what Hunter could become.

So, in essence, I don’t mind what Ratten has done with positional changes. He is trying to cover gaping structural holes. If it’s not working you need to experiment to hopefully find something that does work. I don’t blame him for trying. It’s hard to have a settled line up when half of it is missing.


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1908950Post The Fireman »

TNT


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1909172Post Yorkeys »

Forget winning, make defence the mission for rest of season. Mids and forwards just run with their opponents and tag, avoid middle of ground, chaos balls forward. Try to keep % above 75%. Try to minimise number of times opponents start a scoring move from a player 30m in the clear with options either side of him.

Will also take pressure off any chance kicks for goal as the main thing is run down the clock - left footers kicking right foot bananas from 40 out will disorganise even the best defences and confound their formations.

Completely unattractive style will also pay back AFL for draw and stymie commentators already out of new hyperbole. All players will ask for leave to be with families and grant it to those that give up their contracts.


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1909189Post Teflon »

skeptic wrote: Mon 14 Jun 2021 1:35pm Good discussion

Hamil is one that’s getting a bit of flak as of late but the defence IMO, by and large, has functioned pretty well IMO
Been too long needs to go


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1909190Post skeptic »

Teflon wrote: Wed 16 Jun 2021 3:31pm
skeptic wrote: Mon 14 Jun 2021 1:35pm Good discussion

Hamil is one that’s getting a bit of flak as of late but the defence IMO, by and large, has functioned pretty well IMO
Been too long needs to go
This has been as interesting discussion. You’re impression of my take may be that I’m bring a bit conservative in my attitude to change?

My impression is that you’re being a bit haphazard - the point of change is to improve things that aren’t working. If you’re just doing it adhoc because you’re not where you want to be, you’re just going to implement new stuff, some of which will work and others that won’t. That will leave us where we are.


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1909242Post Teflon »

skeptic wrote: Wed 16 Jun 2021 4:02pm
Teflon wrote: Wed 16 Jun 2021 3:31pm
skeptic wrote: Mon 14 Jun 2021 1:35pm Good discussion

Hamil is one that’s getting a bit of flak as of late but the defence IMO, by and large, has functioned pretty well IMO
Been too long needs to go
This has been as interesting discussion. You’re impression of my take may be that I’m bring a bit conservative in my attitude to change?

My impression is that you’re being a bit haphazard - the point of change is to improve things that aren’t working. If you’re just doing it adhoc because you’re not where you want to be, you’re just going to implement new stuff, some of which will work and others that won’t. That will leave us where we are.
Yep no I get all that
Hamil has also had stints coaching our forwards
Facts are it hasn’t shown any system other than 1 interrupted Covid year on shortened quarters
You’d also have to question our kick in strategy from defence that he currently oversees???
Not change for sake of change but change cause evidence tells you we need new IP and he’s not up to it


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1909246Post 6621104 »

I have to agree on the kick in strategy- people are bagging Howard but look at the last quarter of the last game- almost all crowding the one half of the ground - leaving space for a quick lead into that space yet not one effort to spread the opposition. Way too predictable and unimaginative.


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1909249Post skeptic »

Are we sure that’s Hamil though?


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1909458Post Teflon »

skeptic wrote: Wed 16 Jun 2021 9:40pm Are we sure that’s Hamil though?
I was thinking transition out if defence would be his thing too ?


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1909459Post skeptic »

Teflon wrote: Fri 18 Jun 2021 1:06am
skeptic wrote: Wed 16 Jun 2021 9:40pm Are we sure that’s Hamil though?
I was thinking transition out if defence would be his thing too ?
Could be... but everybody moving to 1 side of the ground around HBF seems like how the midfield wants to set up. Might not all be Hamil.

I don’t know either way but we’re making a lot of assumptions


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1909838Post WellardSaint »

tony74 wrote: Mon 14 Jun 2021 11:33am Well something has to give. I think you’ll find two of the assistants will be shown the door during the bye week with a couple more later in the year.
I wonder if The Skro and Lade were asked this morning to pack personal items into boxes;
And hand in the swipe cards to admin on the way out
:shock:


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1909862Post B.M »

Not to panic.

Melbourne didn’t last year, Bulldogs didn’t… Richmond didn’t in 2016.

Knee jerk reactions are never good

Have a considered approach to the review

Map out what they think a premiership list will look like and build towards it. I keep saying, don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

Possible premiership players on the list
Backline
Paton, Howard, Wilkie - yes
Coffield - maybe
Long, Highmore, Battle, Clark. Sinclair - Possibly but probably not
Carlisle, Frawley, Clavarino, Joyce, Geary, Webster, McKenzie - No
Connolly - don’t know

Mids
Hill, Steele, Crouch, Gresham, Jones - Yes
Byrnes, Bytel - Not Sure
Billings, Ross - possibly but probably not
Battle, Dunstan - unlikely
McKenzie - no

Ruck
Rowan - Yes
Paddy - No
Alabakis - very doubtful
Heath - Unsure
McKernan - obviously not

Forwards
King, Membrey - Yes
Battle - probably not
Butler, Higgins, Gresham - Yes
Billings - Maybe
Lonie, Kent - No
Billings - possibly
Long - don’t reckon
Wood - very unlikely
Allison - not from what I’ve seen


There is about a dozen or so pieces already there
Need to add another 8-10 players over the next little bit

Club cannot, should not and hopefully won’t go through another full rebuild!
Whilst Marshall, Crouch, Steele, Gresham, Clark, King, Howard, Wilkie, Higgins are there they need to challenge!


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1909863Post B.M »

Off field changes required

Coach - stays (for now!) hasn’t impressed this season in tough times

Assistants - Gone (all three!)

Rath - Stays

Gallagher - stays

Robbins - stays

O’Shaughnessey - stays

Lethlean - Stays (for now!)

Roughead - Stays

In
1 experienced assistant (eg someone like Leppitsch)
1 assistant from a successful program (eg from Rich/Geelong)
1 assistant highly rated not long out of the game (eg like Gia)

New development coaches
Highly rated - like Damien Carroll
Experienced - like Choco


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1909864Post Ghost Like »

B.M.

Add Hannebery to any line you like & follow it with NO.

Also, Clark as "probably not"??? Unless his broken jaw is worse than first thought, surely he's a YES.


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1909865Post happy feet »

B.M wrote: Mon 21 Jun 2021 10:03pm Not to panic.

Melbourne didn’t last year, Bulldogs didn’t… Richmond didn’t in 2016.

Knee jerk reactions are never good

Have a considered approach to the review

Map out what they think a premiership list will look like and build towards it. I keep saying, don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

Possible premiership players on the list
Backline
Paton, Howard, Wilkie - yes
Coffield - maybe
Long, Highmore, Battle, Clark. Sinclair - Possibly but probably not
Carlisle, Frawley, Clavarino, Joyce, Geary, Webster, McKenzie - No
Connolly - don’t know

Mids
Hill, Steele, Crouch, Gresham, Jones - Yes
Byrnes, Bytel - Not Sure
Billings, Ross - possibly but probably not
Battle, Dunstan - unlikely
McKenzie - no

Ruck
Rowan - Yes
Paddy - No
Alabakis - very doubtful
Heath - Unsure
McKernan - obviously not

Forwards
King, Membrey - Yes
Battle - probably not
Butler, Higgins, Gresham - Yes
Billings - Maybe
Lonie, Kent - No
Billings - possibly
Long - don’t reckon
Wood - very unlikely
Allison - not from what I’ve seen


There is about a dozen or so pieces already there
Need to add another 8-10 players over the next little bit

Club cannot, should not and hopefully won’t go through another full rebuild!
Whilst Marshall, Crouch, Steele, Gresham, Clark, King, Howard, Wilkie, Higgins are there they need to challenge!
I’m surprised that you have Howard on your list of ‘ins’.


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1909870Post bangaulegend »

IMO the problem is a lot more complex than just shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1909878Post Teflon »

happy feet wrote: Mon 21 Jun 2021 10:14pm
B.M wrote: Mon 21 Jun 2021 10:03pm Not to panic.

Melbourne didn’t last year, Bulldogs didn’t… Richmond didn’t in 2016.

Knee jerk reactions are never good

Have a considered approach to the review

Map out what they think a premiership list will look like and build towards it. I keep saying, don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

Possible premiership players on the list
Backline
Paton, Howard, Wilkie - yes
Coffield - maybe
Long, Highmore, Battle, Clark. Sinclair - Possibly but probably not
Carlisle, Frawley, Clavarino, Joyce, Geary, Webster, McKenzie - No
Connolly - don’t know

Mids
Hill, Steele, Crouch, Gresham, Jones - Yes
Byrnes, Bytel - Not Sure
Billings, Ross - possibly but probably not
Battle, Dunstan - unlikely
McKenzie - no

Ruck
Rowan - Yes
Paddy - No
Alabakis - very doubtful
Heath - Unsure
McKernan - obviously not

Forwards
King, Membrey - Yes
Battle - probably not
Butler, Higgins, Gresham - Yes
Billings - Maybe
Lonie, Kent - No
Billings - possibly
Long - don’t reckon
Wood - very unlikely
Allison - not from what I’ve seen


There is about a dozen or so pieces already there
Need to add another 8-10 players over the next little bit

Club cannot, should not and hopefully won’t go through another full rebuild!
Whilst Marshall, Crouch, Steele, Gresham, Clark, King, Howard, Wilkie, Higgins are there they need to challenge!
I’m surprised that you have Howard on your list of ‘ins’.
:D


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1909890Post B.M »

Why?

I think Howard is a good player, who could play better. And definitely better than some of his ‘efforts’ last game.

Clark
Definitely has the ability to play in a premiership team. Possibly as a HB… more likely as a mid. NEEDS to get fitter.

I don’t think it’s the abomination everyone is carrying on about. Given the way this season has panned out, I’m not at all surprised by the results

Looking at the make up of our list theses are the players in order we could ill afford to lose
1-Marshall… missed 10
2-Steele
3-Ryder….. missed first 4
4-Howard
5-King…. Got the yips
6-Gresham… Season ending injury
7-Hill… complete loss of form
8-Couch… suspended first few games
9-Jones… missed most of season
10-Membrey… went home in key game

Add to that
Paton injury
Ross missing 2
Long loss of form and confidence
Coffield loss of form and confidence
Lonie loss of form and confidence
Butler loss of form and confidence
Carlisle and Hannebery done
Geary done. After missing most of season

I mean seriously
We are a 6-10 team at best

With those injuries, with the depth we have. Why is everyone so surprised?!

Positives
Cal Wilkie continuing on
Highmore has some attributes
Byrnes looks alright
Crouch excellent
Steele excellent
Higgins very good
Webster has been ok
Billings first 10 games
Membrey has been good
Ross return to form after poor 2020
Sinclair very good


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1909895Post minneapolis »

WellardSaint wrote: Mon 21 Jun 2021 7:47pm
tony74 wrote: Mon 14 Jun 2021 11:33am Well something has to give. I think you’ll find two of the assistants will be shown the door during the bye week with a couple more later in the year.
I wonder if The Skro and Lade were asked this morning to pack personal items into boxes;
And hand in the swipe cards to admin on the way out
:shock:
I don't get this at all (even tho Tony predicted something might happen).

We are already short-staffed and to sack 2 more would leave the work to too few. The rest might have a nervous breakdown under the increased load. And we may at any point go into a lockdown or mini-hub. Everyone is needed. The end of the year would be more suitable.


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1909896Post happy feet »

B.M wrote: Tue 22 Jun 2021 12:28am Why?

I think Howard is a good player, who could play better. And definitely better than some of his ‘efforts’ last game.

Clark
Definitely has the ability to play in a premiership team. Possibly as a HB… more likely as a mid. NEEDS to get fitter.

I don’t think it’s the abomination everyone is carrying on about. Given the way this season has panned out, I’m not at all surprised by the results

Looking at the make up of our list theses are the players in order we could ill afford to lose
1-Marshall… missed 10
2-Steele
3-Ryder….. missed first 4
4-Howard
5-King…. Got the yips
6-Gresham… Season ending injury
7-Hill… complete loss of form
8-Couch… suspended first few games
9-Jones… missed most of season
10-Membrey… went home in key game

Add to that
Paton injury
Ross missing 2
Long loss of form and confidence
Coffield loss of form and confidence
Lonie loss of form and confidence
Butler loss of form and confidence
Carlisle and Hannebery done
Geary done. After missing most of season

I mean seriously
We are a 6-10 team at best

With those injuries, with the depth we have. Why is everyone so surprised?!

Positives
Cal Wilkie continuing on
Highmore has some attributes
Byrnes looks alright
Crouch excellent
Steele excellent
Higgins very good
Webster has been ok
Billings first 10 games
Membrey has been good
Ross return to form after poor 2020
Sinclair very good
Because of your post from last week. It game me the impression you did not think very much of him.


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Re: How to fix the Saints!

Post: # 1909898Post Vortex »

Small comments by the media suggest the latest bru ha ha between Seb Ross and club is now irreconcilable.

King slipped in a curious comment a few days ago while discussing trades to increase our trade currency that Seb should be traded now the "relationship had reached its end".

And now Lloyd and Caro have added more meat on the bone around the fallout from Caro's article suggesting Seb may have the s***s because of the leaks from the club regarding his deserting a sinking ship.

Interesting times as it would seem as we are getting smoke signals that all is not happy at the club.

For all our social community efforts as a club we seem to run into trouble with club legends and multiple TB medal winners.


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