List profile = Reality check

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Re: List profile = Reality check

Post: # 1905638Post Freebird »

The_Dud wrote: Mon 31 May 2021 11:51am I don’t want B King if it’s going to cost us drafting 1 or 2 first round midfielders.

The modern game is all about the midfield, without quality in there (as we can see now) it doesn’t really matter how good your talls are.
Why, according to BM we have one of the best midfields in the league


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Re: List profile = Reality check

Post: # 1905645Post The Recruit »

We will gain a lot of cap this year

Geary
Carlisle
Roberton

Dunstan (renegotiated contract)
Webster (renegotiated contract)

Hanners only one more year

Rough estimate thats nearly 2.5m-2.8m cap space by end of 2022


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Re: List profile = Reality check

Post: # 1905647Post The Recruit »

I would also imagine Brad hill isn’t getting paid 900k a year clear.
There would be incentives attached to that, which he will not meet.

Probably closer to 750-800k a year


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Re: List profile = Reality check

Post: # 1905650Post CURLY »

The Recruit wrote: Mon 31 May 2021 3:48pm I would also imagine Brad hill isn’t getting paid 900k a year clear.
There would be incentives attached to that, which he will not meet.

Probably closer to 750-800k a year
Yep 100%. Reckon it's even less.


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Re: List profile = Reality check

Post: # 1905659Post Impatient Sainter »

CURLY wrote: Mon 31 May 2021 4:09pm
The Recruit wrote: Mon 31 May 2021 3:48pm I would also imagine Brad hill isn’t getting paid 900k a year clear.
There would be incentives attached to that, which he will not meet.

Probably closer to 750-800k a year
Yep 100%. Reckon it's even less.
How does anyone but Hill, his manager & the club know? It wouldnt matter if he was on 300k per year he is not earning his $$$ or place in the side.


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Re: List profile = Reality check

Post: # 1905660Post The_Dud »

SaintJohno wrote: Mon 31 May 2021 1:49pm
The_Dud wrote: Mon 31 May 2021 1:45pm
freely wrote: Mon 31 May 2021 1:35pm
The_Dud wrote: Sun 30 May 2021 11:45pm I’m a huge fan of Billings, I think he’s been easily one of our best this year (and great previous years) BUT if we finish down the bottom as it looks like will happen, and can get a top 10 pick for him, I’d seriously consider letting him go.

If we were contending again this year like last I would 100% be against it, but in the situation we’re in I’d be happy to go to the draft with 2 top 8ish picks and grab the best 2 genuine mids available.
He's an RFA this year isn't he? We might not have much choice.
Yeah that’s what I mean. If he wants to leave at the end of the year on a big contract I wouldn’t try match it, let him go and take the first round compo pick.
Would he need to be offered $800K for us to get a first round compo pick? Not sure exactly how it works. Can't imagine someone offering him that, he's no Brad Hill. :?
Yeah I think it’s something like that. If he keeps up his form I would say he’s a good chance of getting it.


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Re: List profile = Reality check

Post: # 1905667Post Ghost Like »

The_Dud wrote: Mon 31 May 2021 6:12pm
SaintJohno wrote: Mon 31 May 2021 1:49pm
The_Dud wrote: Mon 31 May 2021 1:45pm
freely wrote: Mon 31 May 2021 1:35pm
The_Dud wrote: Sun 30 May 2021 11:45pm I’m a huge fan of Billings, I think he’s been easily one of our best this year (and great previous years) BUT if we finish down the bottom as it looks like will happen, and can get a top 10 pick for him, I’d seriously consider letting him go.

If we were contending again this year like last I would 100% be against it, but in the situation we’re in I’d be happy to go to the draft with 2 top 8ish picks and grab the best 2 genuine mids available.
He's an RFA this year isn't he? We might not have much choice.
Yeah that’s what I mean. If he wants to leave at the end of the year on a big contract I wouldn’t try match it, let him go and take the first round compo pick.
Would he need to be offered $800K for us to get a first round compo pick? Not sure exactly how it works. Can't imagine someone offering him that, he's no Brad Hill. :?
Yeah I think it’s something like that. If he keeps up his form I would say he’s a good chance of getting it.
If he keeps up his form why would we want him to go? The only thing I dread more than our List Managers having one first round pick is them having two.
I'm sorry, I don't want to be waiting another 4 or 5 years for that pick not to come to fruition.
If JB chose to leave and we received compensation then I vote for Teflon's dream of bundling it up for Ben King.


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Re: List profile = Reality check

Post: # 1905717Post Teflon »

Ghost Like wrote: Mon 31 May 2021 6:55pm
The_Dud wrote: Mon 31 May 2021 6:12pm
SaintJohno wrote: Mon 31 May 2021 1:49pm
The_Dud wrote: Mon 31 May 2021 1:45pm
freely wrote: Mon 31 May 2021 1:35pm
The_Dud wrote: Sun 30 May 2021 11:45pm I’m a huge fan of Billings, I think he’s been easily one of our best this year (and great previous years) BUT if we finish down the bottom as it looks like will happen, and can get a top 10 pick for him, I’d seriously consider letting him go.

If we were contending again this year like last I would 100% be against it, but in the situation we’re in I’d be happy to go to the draft with 2 top 8ish picks and grab the best 2 genuine mids available.
He's an RFA this year isn't he? We might not have much choice.
Yeah that’s what I mean. If he wants to leave at the end of the year on a big contract I wouldn’t try match it, let him go and take the first round compo pick.
Would he need to be offered $800K for us to get a first round compo pick? Not sure exactly how it works. Can't imagine someone offering him that, he's no Brad Hill. :?
Yeah I think it’s something like that. If he keeps up his form I would say he’s a good chance of getting it.
If he keeps up his form why would we want him to go? The only thing I dread more than our List Managers having one first round pick is them having two.
I'm sorry, I don't want to be waiting another 4 or 5 years for that pick not to come to fruition.
If JB chose to leave and we received compensation then I vote for Teflon's dream of bundling it up for Ben King.
We are not building for a premiership tilt with Jack Billings - you are seeing his peak now, this is it as good as he gets from a HFF who CAN NOT run through the midfield.
We need midfield talent and we have (a very rare occurrence for our club) a second major talent tall who just happens to want to play with his brother whom together would set our forward line up for 10 years. Think Hawkins and Cameron, Lynch and Riewoldt, Darling and Kennedy.......except ours are related twins!! And good.
But we do also need mids so I see 2 scenarios:
1. Forget B King this year, trade JB take 2 best placed mids from draft (if we had picks 7 or 8 we’d do ok) the. hope in his final year out of contract we can screw GC for Bing (they’ll want 2 first rounders) don’t know where we get a second one from
Or
2. Offer JB 1st round compo pick plus next years 1st for B King this year and use this years top10 pick to also take the best available mid
We are 2-4 away from a flag challenge imo so we have additional t8me to bring in additional mid talent or trade but I’m loathe to keep bringing in ring ins from other clubs who don’t buy in
Either way JB goes - I pray North offer him 900.......I wouldn’t pay him anymore than 550-600 as he’s a very nice player but no way a star .....if he’s offered more perhaps try and drive up the price
If the $$ I heard we pay Seb Ross were right I’d also be suggesting he takes a serious pay cut this year too...


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Re: List profile = Reality check

Post: # 1905730Post Ghost Like »

I know your thinking Teflon and I also would love the King Twins, a great story, incredible marketing opportunity & a likely dynamic twin tower set up. You mention those powerful key forward duos. You've seen as much of St Kilda as I have, we've had some of the best key forward combos...Lockett / Loewe, Loewe / Gehrig, Gehrig / Riewoldt, Riewoldt / Kosi. All of them had much better midfields than our current set up.

In light of recruiting players who have no skin in the club other than an inflated monthly pay cheque, that is a key concern about us moving forward. I do not like the idea of pushing a bloke out of the club who wants to play for the club, that says nothing to any young talented player we may have coming through.

Cut our losses with those we have brought in from other clubs, Carlisle & Hannebery. Reduce contracts that have been fattened by the AFL's bullsh!te socialist salary cap.

If there are players who do not want to play for the club, like Bruce, play hardball like the Dogs did with Dunkley. One thing we are terrible at is negotiation, blinking first and giving more than the other club wanted.


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Re: List profile = Reality check

Post: # 1905736Post saynta »

JB is one of our better players. He won't be traded. This is the same sort of crap that was being posted about Seb for years. Makes me want to throw up. When have we ever got a player who was even half decent from one of our trades. I know. Never.


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Re: List profile = Reality check

Post: # 1905738Post CURLY »

What more do people want from Billings? Elite foot skills can play high and deep. I can only imagine the damage he’d do for a Port or Geelong.


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Re: List profile = Reality check

Post: # 1905739Post CURLY »

What more do people want from Billings? Elite foot skills can play high and deep. I can only imagine the damage he’d do for a Port or Geelong.


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Re: List profile = Reality check

Post: # 1905740Post The_Dud »

If we want to contend then I’d take 2 first round mids over B King every day of the week. With a gun midfield the likes of M King, Membrey, Battle, Marshall etc are more than enough in the big forward department.

With an average midfield it wouldn’t matter if you had Riewoldt and Plugger up forward.


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Re: List profile = Reality check

Post: # 1905840Post Teflon »

Ghost Like wrote: Tue 01 Jun 2021 9:39am I know your thinking Teflon and I also would love the King Twins, a great story, incredible marketing opportunity & a likely dynamic twin tower set up. You mention those powerful key forward duos. You've seen as much of St Kilda as I have, we've had some of the best key forward combos...Lockett / Loewe, Loewe / Gehrig, Gehrig / Riewoldt, Riewoldt / Kosi. All of them had much better midfields than our current set up.

In light of recruiting players who have no skin in the club other than an inflated monthly pay cheque, that is a key concern about us moving forward. I do not like the idea of pushing a bloke out of the club who wants to play for the club, that says nothing to any young talented player we may have coming through.

Cut our losses with those we have brought in from other clubs, Carlisle & Hannebery. Reduce contracts that have been fattened by the AFL's bullsh!te socialist salary cap.

If there are players who do not want to play for the club, like Bruce, play hardball like the Dogs did with Dunkley. One thing we are terrible at is negotiation, blinking first and giving more than the other club wanted.
It’s not just about Bing you need to rejuvenate with some decent picks
IF Billings gets offered 700+ else2here it’s goodbye for mine
He’s a top 3 pick nice player not a match winner and covetable imo - he’s also at his greatest worth now and we are 2-3 years away
Keeping all our players forever does us no good longer term
IF the myth of too many players from other clubs is believed then we have a massive cultural problem
Brisbane have brought in a few under Fagan......no issue there?? Plenty of buy in ?
Keeping jack Billings forever doesn’t fix that
We need to be bold and act now


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Re: List profile = Reality check

Post: # 1905842Post Teflon »

The_Dud wrote: Tue 01 Jun 2021 12:22pm If we want to contend then I’d take 2 first round mids over B King every day of the week. With a gun midfield the likes of M King, Membrey, Battle, Marshall etc are more than enough in the big forward department.

With an average midfield it wouldn’t matter if you had Riewoldt and Plugger up forward.
We are 2-3 years away we have time to add midfielders
We have a once in a generation opportunity (not just bloody marketing!) to build a forward line for a decade you don’t let that go ....
If we can keep Steele, Crouch add Bytel possibly Byrnes and Clarke to genuine midfield rotations then I think we on,y need another 2 mids with decent skills and some run n carry
We ought to be able to do that AND get Ben King
Ryder gone in 1 Marshall will be needed in ruck and Battle hasn’t even found a permanent home yet so I wouldn’t be pinning forward line hopes on him just yet......he may be better use down back???
Bing gives us flexibility just get him


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Re: List profile = Reality check

Post: # 1905854Post The_Dud »

Teflon wrote: Tue 01 Jun 2021 9:00pm
The_Dud wrote: Tue 01 Jun 2021 12:22pm If we want to contend then I’d take 2 first round mids over B King every day of the week. With a gun midfield the likes of M King, Membrey, Battle, Marshall etc are more than enough in the big forward department.

With an average midfield it wouldn’t matter if you had Riewoldt and Plugger up forward.
We are 2-3 years away we have time to add midfielders
We have a once in a generation opportunity (not just bloody marketing!) to build a forward line for a decade you don’t let that go ....
If we can keep Steele, Crouch add Bytel possibly Byrnes and Clarke to genuine midfield rotations then I think we on,y need another 2 mids with decent skills and some run n carry
We ought to be able to do that AND get Ben King
Ryder gone in 1 Marshall will be needed in ruck and Battle hasn’t even found a permanent home yet so I wouldn’t be pinning forward line hopes on him just yet......he may be better use down back???
Bing gives us flexibility just get him
I’ve got to disagree with you.

The only premiership team in the last decade to have 2 superstar key forwards was Hawthorn in 2013 with Buddy and Roughie. Most other years it’s been a clear star forward backed up by a quality number 2, and some years not even that.

But what they all have is multiple gun mids, and at the moment we’ve got one, and no offence to any of our young blokes who might turn out to be very good, but the only other possible gun I can see is Clark.

The draft is no guarantee, so I’d like the most possible shots at getting the next Steele/Bont/Fyfe/Dusty/Neale/Petracca


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Re: List profile = Reality check

Post: # 1905869Post Teflon »

The_Dud wrote: Tue 01 Jun 2021 10:18pm
Teflon wrote: Tue 01 Jun 2021 9:00pm
The_Dud wrote: Tue 01 Jun 2021 12:22pm If we want to contend then I’d take 2 first round mids over B King every day of the week. With a gun midfield the likes of M King, Membrey, Battle, Marshall etc are more than enough in the big forward department.

With an average midfield it wouldn’t matter if you had Riewoldt and Plugger up forward.
We are 2-3 years away we have time to add midfielders
We have a once in a generation opportunity (not just bloody marketing!) to build a forward line for a decade you don’t let that go ....
If we can keep Steele, Crouch add Bytel possibly Byrnes and Clarke to genuine midfield rotations then I think we on,y need another 2 mids with decent skills and some run n carry
We ought to be able to do that AND get Ben King
Ryder gone in 1 Marshall will be needed in ruck and Battle hasn’t even found a permanent home yet so I wouldn’t be pinning forward line hopes on him just yet......he may be better use down back???
Bing gives us flexibility just get him
I’ve got to disagree with you.

The only premiership team in the last decade to have 2 superstar key forwards was Hawthorn in 2013 with Buddy and Roughie. Most other years it’s been a clear star forward backed up by a quality number 2, and some years not even that.

But what they all have is multiple gun mids, and at the moment we’ve got one, and no offence to any of our young blokes who might turn out to be very good, but the only other possible gun I can see is Clark.

The draft is no guarantee, so I’d like the most possible shots at getting the next Steele/Bont/Fyfe/Dusty/Neale/Petracca
Fair enough to disagree but Eagles won a flag with Kennedy and Darling up forward and have now added Allen? to that mix...
Don’t disagree we need mids but as I said we are not challenging in the next year or two, three (club now coming out saying as much) so a Billings generated first and next years for Bing still leaves you this year top 10 pick to take a mid....if we can free up some cap space who knows what FA might do for us over the next 3 years. Point is we time to build up that midfield and we should but not at the expense of a generational forward line imo


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Re: List profile = Reality check

Post: # 1925203Post Yorkeys »

B.M wrote: Sun 30 May 2021 11:27pm Why get rid of decent players for picks?

We got rid of McEvoy for picks (18)

We got pick 12 for Goddard

We Got pick 21 for Stanley

We got pick 25 for Dal

Would have been better off keeping all of them!

Picks are NO guarantee

You don’t get better by trading out your good players

Ie/ trade out Billings or Ross for a second round pick
The second round picks we have are Dunstan and Long... would you do those trades

IMO
Draft well with the picks you’ve got
Trade smart to pick up young talent - targeted recruiting
Keep your good players
B.M. did you ever get an answer re Rhys?

I see R. Stanley is considered a key to Cats beating Dees in a preliminary final this week (source: On the Couch). Meanwhile we struggle in the ruck department and are not playing anywhere.

Was it we didn't have the coaches to utilise/develop him or is it the water in the Bellerine or what?

Curious if you ever got a reasonable explanation.

Yours in hindsight

Y


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Re: List profile = Reality check

Post: # 1925215Post saynta »

Yorkeys wrote: Tue 07 Sep 2021 9:33am
B.M wrote: Sun 30 May 2021 11:27pm Why get rid of decent players for picks?

We got rid of McEvoy for picks (18)

We got pick 12 for Goddard

We Got pick 21 for Stanley

We got pick 25 for Dal

Would have been better off keeping all of them!

Picks are NO guarantee

You don’t get better by trading out your good players

Ie/ trade out Billings or Ross for a second round pick
The second round picks we have are Dunstan and Long... would you do those trades

IMO
Draft well with the picks you’ve got
Trade smart to pick up young talent - targeted recruiting
Keep your good players
B.M. did you ever get an answer re Rhys?

I see R. Stanley is considered a key to Cats beating Dees in a preliminary final this week (source: On the Couch). Meanwhile we struggle in the ruck department and are not playing anywhere.

Was it we didn't have the coaches to utilise/develop him or is it the water in the Bellerine or what?

Curious if you ever got a reasonable explanation.

Yours in hindsight

Y

If I remember correctly all the players were asked to rate each of the players on the list . Stanley came in stone motherless last.


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Post: # 1925216Post B.M »

Are you suggesting Rhys is better than either Rowan or Paddy???

BTW
We traded Rhys and got Pick 21 (Hugh Goddard)

My point was that trading out players for picks doesn’t necessarily work.

In this case my point is proven.


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Post: # 1925218Post CURLY »

B.M wrote: Tue 07 Sep 2021 11:36am Are you suggesting Rhys is better than either Rowan or Paddy???

BTW
We traded Rhys and got Pick 21 (Hugh Goddard)

My point was that trading out players for picks doesn’t necessarily work.

In this case my point is proven.
Goddard pre injury looked to have all the tools. Lost his spring and some pace.


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Post: # 1925219Post Scollop »

saynta wrote: Tue 07 Sep 2021 11:23am
If I remember correctly all the players were asked to rate each of the players on the list . Stanley came in stone motherless last.
And we all know how these ‘ideas’ and ratings of a player are started. It comes from your leaders.

In my opinion, if Nick Riewoldt and some of the leadership group DID NOT have this view of Rhys then he wouldn’t have been traded

He would have been developed

We have to learn as a club that you need to embrace all the players on your team and give them every chance to develop to their potential. The good coaches in a team do not let this sort of thing manifest. It’s no surprise that Lyon was Rhys’s first coach


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Post: # 1925228Post Impatient Sainter »

Our major list weakness is a midfield outside speed and kicking skills. Hopefully the club can go somewhere to addressing it at the draft/s?

Backup ruckman/tall forward:
McLean or Flynn or similiar need to be traded in to fill that list void.

The next issue of discussion is a KPP defender:
I dont know whether Ratten or the club rate him, but I believe Clavarino was finally starting to show why he was recruited this year. He still needs to work on increasing his lower core strength to become more dynamic in his movement, but his over head marking was very good. With him, Highmore and Joyce still improving I dont believe the club should panic and attempt to trade in another key defender (this year).

Obviously if they trade out Battle or delist Clavarino or Joyce things would change. They still have Allison as a development KPP project but it probably wouldn't hurt to look at picking up another in the draft/s.

From all the latest media froth Billings is staying which is a good sign for the club. Next season someone needs to find the key to unlock his potential and take him to the next level. If he is going to play HFF/Wing he needs to get dangerous and become a reliable goal kicker. I believe he needs to become more outwardly aggressive in his play. If he can become a consistent 2 goal a game player his worth to the side jumps considerably. ATM he reminds me of a younger Shaun Higgins who is showing again at Geelong the same traits that he has always - gone missing in big games.

If we can keep some where near our best side on the ground for most of the year, plus bring in the likes of the above our list wont have so many gaps.
Last edited by Impatient Sainter on Tue 07 Sep 2021 2:47pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Post: # 1925232Post saynta »

Scollop wrote: Tue 07 Sep 2021 11:54am
saynta wrote: Tue 07 Sep 2021 11:23am
If I remember correctly all the players were asked to rate each of the players on the list . Stanley came in stone motherless last.
And we all know how these ‘ideas’ and ratings of a player are started. It comes from your leaders.

In my opinion, if Nick Riewoldt and some of the leadership group DID NOT have this view of Rhys then he wouldn’t have been traded

He would have been developed

We have to learn as a club that you need to embrace all the players on your team and give them every chance to develop to their potential. The good coaches in a team do not let this sort of thing manifest. It’s no surprise that Lyon was Rhys’s first coach
I have Nick's book, unread to date, but I saw on this forum where someone posted that Stanley was the only player Roo bagged therein.

Agree with your comment on Lyon. Developing players was not has long suit.

Pity as we could use Stanley now,


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Re: List profile = Reality check

Post: # 1925249Post Scollop »

saynta wrote: Tue 07 Sep 2021 2:20pm
Scollop wrote: Tue 07 Sep 2021 11:54am
saynta wrote: Tue 07 Sep 2021 11:23am
If I remember correctly all the players were asked to rate each of the players on the list . Stanley came in stone motherless last.
And we all know how these ‘ideas’ and ratings of a player are started. It comes from your leaders.

In my opinion, if Nick Riewoldt and some of the leadership group DID NOT have this view of Rhys then he wouldn’t have been traded

He would have been developed

We have to learn as a club that you need to embrace all the players on your team and give them every chance to develop to their potential. The good coaches in a team do not let this sort of thing manifest. It’s no surprise that Lyon was Rhys’s first coach
I have Nick's book, unread to date, but I saw on this forum where someone posted that Stanley was the only player Roo bagged therein.

Agree with your comment on Lyon. Developing players was not has long suit.

Pity as we could use Stanley now,
Embracing the energy and hunger and enthusiasm of the younger players can help you win finals and Grand Finals. Malthouse had 19 and 20 and 21 year olds playing against us in 2010

One of the reasons we couldn’t get over the line in 2009/2010 was because we didn’t utilise the whole playing list and we didn’t have players competing for spots. After Dal and Milne were dropped in 2008, Lyon went soft on all his star players after that. Maybe soft is the wrong word…He favoured his senior players and totally ignored the youth to the detriment of the team as a whole and to the detriment longer term for the development and retention of players for the St Kilda Footy Club.

That’s one of the main reasons I started posting on this forum in 2011 prior to Ross leaving our club. I was sick to death of Ross Lyon being hailed as a great coach. A great coach doesn’t ruin your list and set your club up for years as a bottom dweller. That is his legacy and that is not an opinion…it’s a fact.


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