Ruckmen in the modern game

[shrodes]

Thought this was an interesting article, particularly with how many time has been spend over the summer discussing Hickey vs. Longer vs. Holmes vs. Pierce vs. Marshall.

http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/ ... -redundant

Key takeaways:
- No relationship between hitouts and margin
- The percentage of games won by the team that won the hit outs is at a low
- Clearances are far more important than hit outs in this respect ^^
- Primary ruckmen are racking up contested possessions, tackles, and handballs at higher rate than they did in the past, even as their hit-out counts continue to soar
- Secondary ruckmen, who we've defined as players who win their team's second highest hit-out counts in each game, are generating more scoring shots than ever before; this suggest second rucks are forwards who are pinch-hitting in the ruck contest or big men resting forward
- The third man up rule, introduced ahead of the 2017 season, has exacerbated a trend that was already in progress, namely the demise of the second ruck role

How does this change how we all view our 5 ruckmen / backups?

[ace]

Holler for a marshall.
One with a car full of batteries.

[samoht]

It's what I've been observing and arguing all along - ruckmen need to win their fair share of possessions around the ground, that's where they impact most - net positive hitouts don't translate into extra clearances or onto the scoreboard (as extra points).
The clearance players are much more important in producing/effecting the clearances.

If you play 2 ruckmen - they both need to win 15 possessions plus each around the ground (30 possessions in total), and kick a goal or 2 - and all they need to be is competitive in the ruck contest.

Longer had 1 kick and 7 handballs on the weekend - that's not enough.

[ace]

It means you need at least one of your key position forwards to be 200cm plus and able to pinch hit in the ruck after being trained.
The Dogs got Tom Boyd 200cm for that role.
Paddy is way too short.
Josh Bruce is a little on the short side 197cm and has not been adequately trained.
We should put some time into Rowan Marshall 201cm as he is the best chance on our lists of filling this role.

[To the top]

The value of the Geelong ruckman and his support were obvious including that at centre bounces in the last quarter (and there were a few of them) they were able to put the ball to their advantage on their defensive side of the bounce then allowing the feed out the back where Selwood was.

If they are going to ban the third man up why are they then allowing the ruck contests around the boundary to become a wrestling match?

[samoht]

The value of the Geelong ruckman and his support were obvious including that at centre bounces in the last quarter (and there were a few of them) they were able to put the ball to their advantage on their defensive side of the bounce then allowing the feed out the back where Selwood was.

If they are going to ban the third man up why are they then allowing the ruck contests around the boundary to become a wrestling match?

Perhaps in one or two games, this could be true - I suppose if you flip a coin 50 times -- you might end up with 30 heads and 20 tails sometimes. A + 10 advantage to the heads.
The more prolific hitout ruckmen get to "flip the coin" more times- but as the article found and as I have observed -- their hitout on average must go to their team's "disadvantage" just as many times as to its "advantage" - after all how do you explain an extra 600 net hitouts over the year to Freo say ... and it might only translate to a 50 clearance advantage or a negligible advantage over the whole year to them? A team with Fyfe, Neale and Mundy?
- and Port Adelaide with easily the least hitouts won over last year (2016) winning the most centre clearances over the year - being the number 1 team for centre clearances in 2016?
The clearance players make the clearances happen... and negate/take out the ruckman as the factor over the year - that's my take on it and the empirical evidence bears it out.

[dragit]

Someone like Rhys Stanley would be handy… way handier than Longer.

[ace]

Someone like Rhys Stanley would be handy… way handier than Longer.

Geelong thought Stanley would be handier playing for their VFL team.

[Wayne42]

Someone like Rhys Stanley would be handy… way handier than Longer.

Geelong thought Stanley would be handier playing for their VFL team.

The VFL team thought Stanley would be handier playing for Geelong West.

[WellardSaint]

Someone like Rhys Stanley would be handy… way handier than Longer.

Geelong thought Stanley would be handier playing for their VFL team.

The VFL team thought Stanley would be handier playing for Geelong West.

geelong west thought Rhys would be better off playing AFL on a Playstation

[Sainternist]

Someone like Rhys Stanley would be handy… way handier than Longer.

Are you for real? Billy is very handy. We are bloody lucky to have a second ruckman as good as him. He is probably better than Hickey with his tap work.

Also, Rhys Stanley is as soft as ice cream. We did well getting a trade for him.

[dragit]

Someone like Rhys Stanley would be handy… way handier than Longer.

Are you for real? Billy is very handy. We are bloody lucky to have a second ruckman as good as him. He is probably better than Hickey with his tap work.

Also, Rhys Stanley is as soft as ice cream. We did well getting a trade for him.

Yeah I'm for real... billy just played his first game in 18 months and will be back at VFL this week... we'd be lucky to get a third rounder for him at the moment.

A half decent ruck forward would be very handy right now compared to 5 specialist rucks that we can't play more than one at any time.

Stanley is no world beater, but he played 20 odd games last year in a side that made a prelim... averages nearly a goal per game, 4 marks and 12-13 touches... similar to Bruce's recent form except Bruce is just a liability when playing in the ruck... 1 hitout last week playing for 30 mins in the ruck... completely uncompetitive.

[Jacks Back]

If ruckmen are dying out of the modern game then maybe the afl could introduce a 23rd man (or is that person) rule whereby only a ruckman can be picked in that spot (as 23rd man) who can only interchange with the main ruckman (as much as they want and not part of the 90 interchange cap).

Something like that can be the only way a genuine, old fashioned ruckman (like Longer) stays in the game otherwise it's curtains.

[dragit]

Genuine old fashioned ruckmen are just big slow guys that can neither mark or dispose of the ball well...

I definetly don't want to see more of them running around.

[Jacks Back]

Genuine old fashioned ruckmen are just big slow guys that can neither mark or dispose of the ball well...

I definetly don't want to see more of them running around.

Aussie Rules football was always the code that any kid could play whatever their size. It should not be just for the athletes.

[Sainternist]

Stanley is no world beater, but he played 20 odd games last year in a side that made a prelim... averages nearly a goal per game, 4 marks and 12-13 touches... similar to Bruce's recent form except Bruce is just a liability when playing in the ruck... 1 hitout last week playing for 30 mins in the ruck... completely uncompetitive.

If you are trying to suggest we should have hung on to Stanley, then you've got problems.

The guy had no ticker and no aggression. Had plenty of size, but would never crash packs. I'll take Bruce over him any day of the week.

Come on, move on, Dragit. Stanley is in the past. If anything, he was burden to our team. Perhaps he just fits better to Geelong's game plan, but he still ain't setting the world on fire. He never will, because HE IS A BUM.

NEXT!

[White Winmar]

At the risk of being howled down for this suggestion, has anyone else noticed we have a 200cm, potentially elite, mature bodied monster playing in our senior side ATM? I know the boy dislikes playing forward or in the ruck, but he has kicked as many as eight in a game and multiple goals on a number of occasions. He was handy as a pinch hitting ruckman at the dopers as well. May be a bit of a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul, but a direct swap with Bruce for the time being might not be such a bad experiment. I know the defence seems settled for once, but we are not going to improve until we kick a score.

[dragit]

Stanley is no world beater, but he played 20 odd games last year in a side that made a prelim... averages nearly a goal per game, 4 marks and 12-13 touches... similar to Bruce's recent form except Bruce is just a liability when playing in the ruck... 1 hitout last week playing for 30 mins in the ruck... completely uncompetitive.

If you are trying to suggest we should have hung on to Stanley, then you've got problems.

The guy had no ticker and no aggression. Had plenty of size, but would never crash packs. I'll take Bruce over him any day of the week.

Come on, move on, Dragit. Stanley is in the past. If anything, he was burden to our team. Perhaps he just fits better to Geelong's game plan, but he still ain't setting the world on fire. He never will, because HE IS A BUM.

NEXT!

I definitely have problems, but so does our side at the moment... 4 rucks playing at sandy and none of them can play with hickey... Bruce struggling all over the ground but escpecaily in the ruck.

I'm not too fussed about Stanley in particular, but that type of player we could really do with... genuine forward ruck...

Carlisle has played some very good football in the ruck, one great game against port from memory... we could do with three of him at the moment & we don't have a better option for CHB... Bruce was pretty ordinary in the backline last time.

[shrodes]

I definitely have problems, but so does our side at the moment... 4 rucks playing at sandy and none of them can play with hickey... Bruce struggling all over the ground but escpecaily in the ruck.

I'm not too fussed about Stanley in particular, but that type of player we could really do with... genuine forward ruck...

Carlisle has played some very good football in the ruck, one great game against port from memory... we could do with three of him at the moment & we don't have a better option for CHB... Bruce was pretty ordinary in the backline last time.

I think Marshall could 100% play alongside Hickey. Actually, I have a feeling that is why he was drafted - a pinch hitter ruck/forward we have been sorely missing.
Potentially Lewie could play alongside Hickey as well. We just need to sink some more time into those two.

Re: Carlisle rucking, he might do well in there, but rucking is hard on the body, and we don't want our prized defender getting belted. Also we have much more depth in the forwards than we do key defenders, so it makes sense that Bruce is the one to pick up the slack in the ruck, even if he is middling at best in that department.